Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I would have survived if I ever had to work under him. But reading "The Home Computer Wars" the other day, it left me with a slightly different feeling - an admiration for the man's sheer determination to win in business, and his belief in his own business "religion".

I tried to distill out of the book the components of The Religion (according to the book, Jack called it this himself). It included a strong focus on lean business (sounds very modern), reducing the number of layers of command, expecting managers to "get involved" and not just manage. He was apparently oft-quoted as saying "business is like sex. You have to be involved".

Just wondering if there are any other closet Jack admirers, and whether they can shed any more light on Jack's business religion?

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:06:56 +1300, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I

would

have survived if I ever had to work under him. But reading "The Home Computer Wars" the other day, it left me with a slightly different feeling - an admiration for the man's sheer determination to win in business, and his

belief

in his own business "religion".

I tried to distill out of the book the components of The Religion (according

to

the book, Jack called it this himself). It included a strong focus on lean business (sounds very modern), reducing the number of layers of command, expecting managers to "get involved" and not just manage. He was apparently oft-quoted as saying "business is like sex. You have to be involved".

Just wondering if there are any other closet Jack admirers, and whether they can shed any more light on Jack's business religion?

Well you have to admire him. Like you have to admire Bill Gates. Even if
you otherwise hate them for being pricks.
--
Andreas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:06:56 +1300, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I would
have survived if I ever had to work under him. But reading "The Home Computer
Wars" the other day, it left me with a slightly different feeling - an
admiration for the man's sheer determination to win in business, and his belief
in his own business "religion".

I tried to distill out of the book the components of The Religion (according

to

the book, Jack called it this himself). It included a strong focus on lean >> business (sounds very modern), reducing the number of layers of command,
expecting managers to "get involved" and not just manage. He was apparently >> oft-quoted as saying "business is like sex. You have to be involved".

Just wondering if there are any other closet Jack admirers, and whether they >> can shed any more light on Jack's business religion?

Well you have to admire him. Like you have to admire Bill Gates. Even if
you otherwise hate them for being pricks.

From a customer's point of view I think you can admire Tramiel much
more than Bill Gates. Tramiel used his ruthless business strategies
to cut costs and therefore be able to profitably sell computers
cheaper than anyone else - opening them up to some home markets that
otherwise might have been priced out. Gates just did his best to
prevent other players from getting a strong foothold in the PC OS
market, so that he could get away with selling his software with
very high profit margins. Steve Jobs as well just convinced a
smaller market with more money to buy more expensive tech by making
it shiny and fashionable.

I'm sure you'd soon conclude that they were all pricks if you were
trying to compete in the same market as they were/are. As I remember
it, one of Tramiel's other sayings was "business is war". In my
opinion Tramiel did more to further the reach of computing as a
whole.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 1/18/20 1:06 PM, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I

would

have survived if I ever had to work under him. <snip>

Hello, and hmmmm...Seems I remember a C-64 game called "Jack Attack".
Just a coincidence I suppose. Sincerely,



--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_123234@hotmail.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 07:03:50 -0500, J.B. Wood wrote:

On 1/18/20 1:06 PM, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I would
have survived if I ever had to work under him. <snip>

Hello, and hmmmm...Seems I remember a C-64 game called "Jack
Attack". Just a coincidence I suppose. Sincerely,

I seem to remember that game but not have it in my image
collection. Lunar Attack is the closest I can up with.
--
Andreas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:17:55 +0000 (UTC), Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:06:56 +1300, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I would
have survived if I ever had to work under him. But reading "The Home Computer
Wars" the other day, it left me with a slightly different feeling - an
admiration for the man's sheer determination to win in business, and his belief
in his own business "religion".

I tried to distill out of the book the components of The Religion (according to
the book, Jack called it this himself). It included a strong focus on lean >>> business (sounds very modern), reducing the number of layers of command, >>> expecting managers to "get involved" and not just manage. He was apparently >>> oft-quoted as saying "business is like sex. You have to be involved".

Just wondering if there are any other closet Jack admirers, and whether they
can shed any more light on Jack's business religion?

Well you have to admire him. Like you have to admire Bill Gates. Even if
you otherwise hate them for being pricks.

From a customer's point of view I think you can admire Tramiel much
more than Bill Gates. Tramiel used his ruthless business strategies
to cut costs and therefore be able to profitably sell computers
cheaper than anyone else - opening them up to some home markets that otherwise might have been priced out. Gates just did his best to
prevent other players from getting a strong foothold in the PC OS
market, so that he could get away with selling his software with
very high profit margins. Steve Jobs as well just convinced a
smaller market with more money to buy more expensive tech by making
it shiny and fashionable.

I'm sure you'd soon conclude that they were all pricks if you were
trying to compete in the same market as they were/are. As I remember
it, one of Tramiel's other sayings was "business is war". In my
opinion Tramiel did more to further the reach of computing as a
whole.

I can agree with that. All pricks are equal, but some pricks are more
equal than others.;-)

Indeed I wonder what happened to the micro computer industry if Commodore hadn't existed.

There is a very interesting article in a BYTE issue from 1983 where they predict how the market would develop in the next five years (1988). Most
of the predictions were wrong. They didn't see the success of
Commodore. They were right though that in the professional sector IBM
will win the race.
--
Andreas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Re: Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Computer Nerd Kev to Andreas Kohlbach on Tue Jan 21 2020 10:17 pm

From a customer's point of view I think you can admire Tramiel much
more than Bill Gates. Tramiel used his ruthless business strategies
to cut costs and therefore be able to profitably sell computers
cheaper than anyone else - opening them up to some home markets that otherwise might have been priced out. Gates just did his best to

That really came across in the book I was reading. Most of Commodore thought they should concetrate on high-end PET-level machines, but Jack drove the plan and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure , but I feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose. He apparently hated complex systems and rules, because this
is what allowed people to commit horrors like the Holocaust; he apparently thought a mass spread of computers by act as a counter-weight against that.

He seems a lot more complex, interesting character than the likes of Gates or the diefied (is that a a word?) Jobs.

Re: Re: Jack Tramiel
By: J.B. Wood to Simon Geddes on Wed Jan 22 2020 07:03 am

Hello, and hmmmm...Seems I remember a C-64 game called "Jack Attack".
Just a coincidence I suppose. Sincerely,

Not a coincidence. That's mentioned in On the Edge I think. Or maybe I saw it on Youtube or something, back in the day. But it was indeed a reference to Jack Tramiel's explosions at his wayward employees.

J.B. Wood <arl_123234@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 1/18/20 1:06 PM, Simon Geddes wrote:

Jack gets a bad rapp for his "Jack attacks", and I'm not sure how well I would
have survived if I ever had to work under him. <snip>

Hello, and hmmmm...Seems I remember a C-64 game called "Jack Attack".
Just a coincidence I suppose. Sincerely,

Not a coincidence actually:

The game was developed by students Kevin Kieller and John Traynor for
the VIC-20 and originally named 'Cubic Critters'. After showing the
game to Commodore sales reps at a computer show they were invited to
the company's Toronto offices to strike a publishing deal. Commodore
felt the name was too close to 'Q*bert' and after being unable to
settle on a new name, the writers asked the Commodore team to name it.
The game was then renamed as an in joke after the company's founder
Jack Tramiel. Kieller said "We were led to believe that certain people
at Commodore felt Jack Tramiel looked like the red-face critter when
he was upset. According to our Commodore contacts, if Jack Tramiel was
upset and yelling at you it was known as a Jack Attack." This was
confirmed by Commodore marketing strategist Michael Tomczyk. "He
chuckled when we named one of the games Jack Attack, which was an
inside joke. Jack was short and round in stature but had a deep
booming voice that could shake the walls. I don't think he realized
the meaning of Jack Attack but he knew it was about him. He never said
much about it, he just allowed it to happen."

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Attack

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 13:49:59 -0500
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

There is a very interesting article in a BYTE issue from 1983 where they predict how the market would develop in the next five years (1988). Most
of the predictions were wrong. They didn't see the success of
Commodore. They were right though that in the professional sector IBM
will win the race.

I wonder if someone in 1988 predicted that someone would take a perfectly sound
business like Commodore and drive it at full speed over the edge of a cliff by
1994? :D

--

/ Pinku

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 13:36:01 +1300, Simon Geddes wrote:

Re: Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Computer Nerd Kev to Andreas Kohlbach on Tue Jan 21 2020 10:17 pm

From a customer's point of view I think you can admire Tramiel much
more than Bill Gates. Tramiel used his ruthless business strategies
to cut costs and therefore be able to profitably sell computers
cheaper than anyone else - opening them up to some home markets that otherwise might have been priced out. Gates just did his best to

That really came across in the book I was reading. Most of Commodore thought they should concetrate on high-end PET-level machines, but Jack drove the

plan

and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure , but

I

feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose.

May be he saw the success of the Apple ][ and TRS-80 in homes, while the
PET was more seen in offices and schools.
--
Andreas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Greetings.

On 25/01/2020 14.34, Lawrence Woodman wrote:

I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but one thing that they did do is bring
a common platform to million's of computers at a relatively low cost
compared to CP/M.

I take it you're referring to the huge difference in price IBM was
charging for the two operating systems: according to Ars Technica [1],
this was $40 for PC-DOS (a licensed version of Microsoft's MS-DOS)
versus $240 for Digital's CP/M-86. But the same article suggests that
the overpricing of CP/M-86 may have been IBM's decision rather than
Digital's. At least, this is what Gary Kildall believed. So Microsoft
may not have been responsible for making their OS available at a
"relatively" low cost.

Regards,
Tristan

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/07/ibm-pc-history-part-2/

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Greetings.

On 22/01/2020 01.36, Simon Geddes wrote:

Re: Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Computer Nerd Kev to Andreas Kohlbach on Tue Jan 21 2020 10:17 pm

From a customer's point of view I think you can admire Tramiel much
more than Bill Gates. Tramiel used his ruthless business strategies
to cut costs and therefore be able to profitably sell computers
cheaper than anyone else - opening them up to some home markets that otherwise might have been priced out. Gates just did his best to

That really came across in the book I was reading. Most of Commodore thought they should concetrate on high-end PET-level machines, but Jack drove the

plan

and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure , but

I

feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose.

I haven't read The Home Computer Wars, but that's not at all the
impression I got of Tramiel from reading Brian Bagnall's "On the Edge:
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" (or whatever it happened to
be called at the time -- the author seems to change the title of the
book with every edition). Anyways, from that book it was pretty clear
that Tramiel was driven purely by profit and egotism, not any higher
social purpose. After reading the book (and watching the "Commodore
Story" documentary) I came away with a much less favourable impression
of Tramiel than I had had previously.

Regards,
Tristan

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Tristan Miller wrote to Simon Geddes <=-

and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure,
but I feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose.

I haven't read The Home Computer Wars, but that's not at all the impression I got of Tramiel from reading Brian Bagnall's "On the Edge:
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" (or whatever it happened to
be called at the time -- the author seems to change the title of the
book with every edition). Anyways, from that book it was pretty clear that Tramiel was driven purely by profit and egotism, not any higher social purpose. After reading the book (and watching the "Commodore Story" documentary) I came away with a much less favourable impression
of Tramiel than I had had previously.

Jack, who dumped CBM in favour of Atari (nee Tramiel Technology Ltd.)
was just as much about money as Irving (Gould) and Medhi (Ali) who came
after him at Commodore and busted it out for fun and (especially) profit.

... Amiga made it possible. Commodore made it dead.
--- MultiMail/Win32
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:24:18 +1300, Dave Drum wrote:

Tristan Miller wrote to Simon Geddes <=-

and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure, but I feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose.

I haven't read The Home Computer Wars, but that's not at all the impression I got of Tramiel from reading Brian Bagnall's "On the Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" (or whatever it happened to be called at the time -- the author seems to change the title of the book with every edition). Anyways, from that book it was pretty clear that Tramiel was driven purely by profit and egotism, not any higher social purpose. After reading the book (and watching the "Commodore Story" documentary) I came away with a much less favourable impression of Tramiel than I had had previously.

Jack, who dumped CBM in favour of Atari (nee Tramiel Technology Ltd.)
was just as much about money as Irving (Gould) and Medhi (Ali) who came
after him at Commodore and busted it out for fun and (especially) profit.

... Amiga made it possible. Commodore made it dead.

Wasn't it Commodore offering a cash back of some sort in the early to mid 1980s? You would send in your existing non-Commodore computer and get a discount of some $199 of a price of $249. Some people bought a brand new
Timex Sinclair 1000 for $99, sent it to Commodore to receive a Commodore 64.
To make some $50. That was a very aggressive marketing strategy by
Commodore. I only learned about this reading some 1980s BYTE magazines
as PDF which also contained to contemporary advertisements.
--
Andreas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Re: Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Tristan Miller to Simon Geddes on Thu Jan 30 2020 01:32 pm

That really came across in the book I was reading. Most of Commodore thought they should concetrate on high-end PET-level machines, but Jack drove the

plan

and ambition to do the Vic as a low-cost computer for all. I'm not sure , but

I

feel this was partly motivated by a sense of public purpose.

I haven't read The Home Computer Wars, but that's not at all the
impression I got of Tramiel from reading Brian Bagnall's "On the Edge:
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" (or whatever it happened to
be called at the time -- the author seems to change the title of the
book with every edition). Anyways, from that book it was pretty clear
that Tramiel was driven purely by profit and egotism, not any higher
social purpose. After reading the book (and watching the "Commodore
Story" documentary) I came away with a much less favourable impression
of Tramiel than I had had previously.

I've read "On the Edge" too - a fantastic book. I think part of this difference might be down to one taking a wide view of Commodore history (including the large part of post-Jack Commodore, where Jack became essentially the enemy), while the other was a more "contemperaneous" account. It's clear the author Michael Tomczyk was part of Jack's famous inner circle, so no doubt his impression was coloured. But perhaps Brian Bagnall's view of Jack was coloured by his own role in Commodore's failure. Who knows. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Dave Drum to Tristan Miller on Fri Jan 31 2020 12:24 pm

Jack, who dumped CBM in favour of Atari (nee Tramiel Technology Ltd.)
was just as much about money as Irving (Gould) and Medhi (Ali) who came after him at Commodore and busted it out for fun and (especially) profit.

I don't think he was really dumped. Irving sacked him. Not sure how that's possible, and what the actual reasons were. Some say because he wanted to bring his sons in. Irving said he was worried about JAck's health, and didn't think he was the man to take the company to beyond a billion.

Maybe Jack planned to build Atari up to the point where he could buy our Commodore and get his creation back. Something akin to the Steve Jobs story, where he was ousted but found a back route back in.

Andreas Kohlbach wrote to Dave Drum <=-

Jack, who dumped CBM in favour of Atari (nee Tramiel Technology Ltd.)
was just as much about money as Irving (Gould) and Medhi (Ali) who came after him at Commodore and busted it out for fun and (especially) profit.

... Amiga made it possible. Commodore made it dead.

Wasn't it Commodore offering a cash back of some sort in the early to
mid 1980s? You would send in your existing non-Commodore computer and
get a discount of some $199 of a price of $249. Some people bought a
brand new Timex Sinclair 1000 for $99, sent it to Commodore to receive
a Commodore 64. To make some $50. That was a very aggressive marketing strategy by Commodore. I only learned about this reading some 1980s
BYTE magazines as PDF which also contained to contemporary
advertisements. --
Andreas

I missed that. At the time the C=64 appeared I had a TRaSh-80 that I had
got at a whacking great discount by owning Tandy shares (10). The discount saved me more than I had spent on the stock. It never paid a ca$h dividend
but it kept getting split into more shares and automatically got me stock
in spin-off companies. As well as share-holder discounts at Tandy Leather
and Radio Shack stores (all long gone). When I did sell up - long after
I peddled the TRS-80 I got over 10X what I had originally spent on the
stock. It was enough I had to list it on my income taxes.

And in the middle of all that I bought my first C=64/1541/1702 monitor
for under U$500. Still have the 1702 monitor as it is a great editing
monitor for video tapes. Bv)=

... Computers run on smoke. They stop when it leaks out.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Simon Geddes wrote to Dave Drum <=-

Jack, who dumped CBM in favour of Atari (nee Tramiel Technology Ltd.)
was just as much about money as Irving (Gould) and Medhi (Ali) who came after him at Commodore and busted it out for fun and (especially) profit.

I don't think he was really dumped. Irving sacked him. Not sure how
that's possible, and what the actual reasons were. Some say because he wanted to bring his sons in. Irving said he was worried about JAck's health, and didn't think he was the man to take the company to beyond a billion.

They use long, sharp knives and great mendacity in the world of high
finance. I missed the palace coup part of the story - but it certainly
rings true.

Maybe Jack planned to build Atari up to the point where he could buy
our Commodore and get his creation back. Something akin to the Steve
Jobs story, where he was ousted but found a back route back in.

I find/found it ironic that just at the time Jack leapt (for whatever reason(s)) to Atari that CBM acquired Amiga Technologies which Atari had provided the financing to get going. So, Tramiel, who had been sorta
kinda thinking of using the Amiga to kick Commode Door's butt had to
resort to the ST series (520 and 1040) to try to compete. The ST never
was even a near equal to the Amiga. Shame that Gould and Ali smelled
more profit$ in bankrupting the company than it continuing - like Apple.

... The Amiga Trinity: Dave Haynie, Jay Miner, Fred Fish
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Dave Drum to Simon Geddes on Sun Feb 02 2020 06:48 am

was even a near equal to the Amiga. Shame that Gould and Ali smelled
more profit$ in bankrupting the company than it continuing - like Apple.

Such a shame. I still use an Amiga-offspring daily. The technology, the OS, is still so usable and allows me to be highly productive. It feels like such a creative computer. What could it have been with twenty five more years of proper development? Still, I often think it's miraculous and wonderful I can still use it as my daily driver, all these years on. Long may it continue.

Re: Jack Tramiel
By: Simon Geddes to Dave Drum on Sun Feb 02 2020 07:09 am

Such a shame. I still use an Amiga-offspring daily. The technology, the OS, is still so usable and allows me to be highly productive. It feels like such

Well..when I say "highly productive"...I don't think I've ever been that :)

But I mean..I can do real work quite reasonably on it.

Love the quote and I truly admire his dedication and mindset. I've learned through the years that this is the right mindset. If you want to be an entrepreneur you have to be disciplined, cold, and goal-oriented. People who are not determined and give up after their first fail will never succeed. I learned this the hard way. My first business failed many times and I was so close to giving up, but I knew that wasn't an option for me. I started reading about ways to make my business thrive, I even got in touch magento integration for marketing development https://amasty.com/magento-integration-services.html , I did everything in my power to succeed. And guess what? After 3 years of hard work I can easily say it was all worth it...Therefore, I totally agree with what Jack Tramiel said, business is like sex.

On Tue, 06 Apr 2021 12:35:12 +1300, Nick Jones wrote:

Love the quote and I truly admire his dedication and mindset. I've learned through the years that this is the right mindset. If you want to be an entrepreneur you have to be disciplined, cold, and goal-oriented.

He was also smart, funny but also arrogant.

The in my opinion best episode of The Computer Chronicles from 1985 had
some high profile guests being asked about the future development in
micro computers, because that year saw its first downturn.

In one segment was Trip Hawkins and (rightful so in my opinion) said that
after a boom there'll always be a consolidation.

In another segment was Adam Osborne. Asked at the end if it was the
Osborne Effect which folded his company he denied and told everybody to
"reset" and that he won't tell the reason "right now". The smile fell of
the anchor's (Stewart Cheifet) face. Osborne passed in 2003. I wonder if
he ever told "the truth" or took it to his grave.

The third segment saw Jack Tramiel and son and was labeled
"JackIntosh". He was Atari's boss for not even a year and the Atari ST
just hit the shelves. When asked what he thought of the rumors of a new
and powerful computer by Commodore (the Amiga, but I think the name
wasn't mentioned because it wasn't known yet) he said he hadn't seen it
yet, but wasn't worried. Asked about COLECO and their failed Adam
computer Tramiel said something like "COLECO is a good toy maker". That
was all he said. *LOL*
--
Andreas

https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

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