Hello, All.

An author I like, M. Pax, has an ebook of theirs available for free on several platforms.

https://books2read.com/u/47QZq3

It's a Space Opera style if I'm not mistaken.

--
Best regards!
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Hi Charles!

16 Nov 20 07:06, you wrote to All:

Hello, All.

An author I like, M. Pax, has an ebook of theirs available for free on several platforms.

https://books2read.com/u/47QZq3

It's a Space Opera style if I'm not mistaken.

Echomail could use a landing page like that with little icons that represent the various echos, and a FAQ on what echomail is and how to participate.



--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)

Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/17/20 9:30 PM you wrote:

Hi Charles! 16 Nov 20 07:06, you wrote to All:

Hello, All. An author I like, M. Pax, has an ebook of theirs
available for free on several platforms.
https://books2read.com/u/47QZq3 It's a Space Opera style if I'm
not mistaken.

Echomail could use a landing page like that with little icons that represent the various echos, and a FAQ on what echomail is and how
to participate.

BBSes have all of the options to do pretty much that. Just not necessarily pretty buttons.

--
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Hi Charles!

18 Nov 20 09:49, you wrote to me:

https://books2read.com/u/47QZq3

Echomail could use a landing page like that with little icons
that represent the various echos, and a FAQ on what echomail is
and how to participate.

BBSes have all of the options to do pretty much that. Just not
necessarily pretty buttons.

An upgrade on layout would be good, especially when reading through the various echos of a network.

I think there is only one Sychronet bbs that organizes the echos into categories first: Technical, Entertainment, Sysop, GeneralChat, etc.. and then all the echos spanning any of the other networks are featured in those categories.

Most BBSes organize by network, and then just list the echos. A user does not always have a clear idea what echo is for what. And then they have to look for the same thing in the next network.

The default Sychro webby-thing is a good example. Unless the user has the habit of using Ctrl-F to look for a string (chat, food, computer, books, music, etc) they are spending far too much time looking at a long list, missing something, and give up.


---
* Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)

Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 5:25 PM you wrote:

BBSes have all of the options to do pretty much that. Just not
necessarily pretty buttons.

An upgrade on layout would be good, especially when reading
through the various echos of a network. I think there is only one Sychronet bbs that organizes the echos into categories first:
Technical, Entertainment, Sysop, GeneralChat, etc.. and then all
the echos spanning any of the other networks are featured in those categories. Most BBSes organize by network, and then just list the
echos. A user does not always have a clear idea what echo is for
what. And then they have to look for the same thing in the next
network. The default Sychro webby-thing is a good example. Unless
the user has the habit of using Ctrl-F to look for a string (chat,
food, computer, books, music, etc) they are spending far too much
time looking at a long list, missing something, and give up.

That comes down to the various programs, and the Sysops.

I believe at least several programs have the option for at least short descriptions for the message areas. Whether or not they are used is to each Sysop.

Web interfaces, I couldn't say. I've not really studied them much.


--
Best regards!
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--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
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Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 09:49, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/17/20 9:30 PM you wrote:

https://books2read.com/u/47QZq3

Echomail could use a landing page like that with little icons that
represent the various echos, and a FAQ on what echomail is and how
to participate.

BBSes have all of the options to do pretty much that. Just not
necessarily pretty buttons.

Maybe. But how are you going to inform the user/
conversationalist that such a thing as echomail even exits
when they probably have it in their heads that BBSing from the
80's is dead and requires retro computers to access?

There is nothing out that promotes that the othernets of yore
are still viable from modern devices.

Most potential users are reading blogs and forums that cater
to their interest. Ephemeral conversation is often limited to
Facebook - because that is all they know.

If there was a landing page that describes what echomail is
and how to use it (either via the Telegram app, or fTelnet or
whatever interface) then they can be informed about the
strange world of BBSing via their devices too.

I think the messaging component should be promoted first,
*then* the BBS. Not the other way around as it is now.

--
../|ug

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Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 14:08, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

An upgrade on layout would be good, especially when reading
through the various echos of a network. I think there is only one
Sychronet bbs that organizes the echos into categories first:

That comes down to the various programs, and the Sysops.

I believe at least several programs have the option for at least short descriptions for the message areas. Whether or not they are used is to each Sysop.

The short descriptions can provide good info, but the lists
are often unstructered, no sensical order. If someone is just
looking for all the potential programming echos - for example,
they would work well all in one short-list group.

Web interfaces, I couldn't say. I've not really studied them much.

Even the traditional BBSes don't necessarily organize message
areas by category.

The design of BBSes has been based on "find a bbs first, then
figure out where everything is".

The "Select Conferences" via QWK menus is not bad for the BBS
user. Some offline readers (SemPoint) offer a list of
selectable echos by TAGNAME only, and the selected ones can
come on the next QWK session.

But online, the BBS user often has to navigate across all the
available "networks" looking for the conference that fits
their interest.


--
../|ug

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Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 6:14 PM you wrote:

Hello Charles! ** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 14:08, Charles Pierson
wrote to August Abolins:

An upgrade on layout would be good, especially when reading
through the various echos of a network. I think there is only
one Sychronet bbs that organizes the echos into categories
first:

That comes down to the various programs, and the Sysops. I
believe at least several programs have the option for at least
short descriptions for the message areas. Whether or not they are
used is to each Sysop.

The short descriptions can provide good info, but the lists are
often unstructered, no sensical order. If someone is just
looking for all the potential programming echos - for example,
they would work well all in one short-list group.

Area lists are usually Alphabetical by Network, I've noticed.

There isn't much that can be done about that unless you can convince every Sysop, Software writer, Echolist manager, and who ever else is involved that I might be leaving out to change that.

That's not likely to happen.

There is also something in Fidonet called ECHO ADS. It's specific purpose is to let people know that there is an Echo about a topic. If a sysop isn't carrying a particular echo, a user can either ask the sysop if they would, or find another BBS that does if the sysop in question doesn't want to.

There is Also Othernet ads, as well as BBS ad's which generally advertise what networks they have.

Much of the BBS and Fidonet experience has to be learned being in it.


--
Best regards!
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--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
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Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 6:02 PM you wrote:

BBSes have all of the options to do pretty much that. Just not
necessarily pretty buttons.

Maybe. But how are you going to inform the user/
conversationalist that such a thing as echomail even exits when
they probably have it in their heads that BBSing from the 80's
is dead and requires retro computers to access?

Telling them about echomail is somewhat useless without them understanding BBSes are still here and operational, and do not require computers older than they are to access.

There is nothing out that promotes that the othernets of yore
are still viable from modern devices.

A "landing page" would do no more than any current BBS's Webpage now. It would still require a specific search for BBS related terms, so short of reading an article about BBSes somewhere, or seeing BBS and BBS networks mentioned in their favorite social media platform, they wouldn't know what to look for.

Most potential users are reading blogs and forums that cater to
their interest. Ephemeral conversation is often limited to
Facebook - because that is all they know.

And a landing page found by Google searches won't change that.

If there was a landing page that describes what echomail is and
how to use it (either via the Telegram app, or fTelnet or
whatever interface) then they can be informed about the strange
world of BBSing via their devices too.

That's not going to happen via Googling it.

They will have to see it discussed via blogs, Tweets, Facebook posts, Instagram, whatever.

There has to be something attracting interest first.

I think the messaging component should be promoted first, *then*
the BBS. Not the other way around as it is now.

It goes hand in hand. BBS'S and amateur computer networks have been around longer than Zuckerberg has been alive. You're not buried in advertisements because you did a websearch about headphones once to get someone a gift.

But you can't simply say "Hey kids, you want echomail conferences about almost any topic you can think of?" Without also explaining about BBSes and how to use them.


--
Best regards!
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--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Houston, TX (1:153/757.26)

Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 19:05, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

Telling them about echomail is somewhat useless without them
understanding BBSes are still here and operational, and do not require computers older than they are to access.

One step at a time. The first step.. join an echo. Then they
"learn" the unique terms and further possibilities.

A "landing page" would do no more than any current BBS's Webpage now. It would still require a specific search for BBS related terms, so short of reading an article about BBSes somewhere, or seeing BBS and BBS networks mentioned in their favorite social media platform, they wouldn't know
what to look for.

The page would be a tool. Stas' google search using
FUTURE4FIDO pulled up my "Help" page, first. That probably
means that Google has recognized it gets a lot of visits and
is therefore "relevant". I would not dismiss the usefulness
of a suitable info-page as quickly as you do. ;)

Most potential users are reading blogs and forums that cater to
their interest. Ephemeral conversation is often limited to
Facebook - because that is all they know.

And a landing page found by Google searches won't change that.

I wouldn't be so sure. People seem to think that the internet
*is* google. That's what they use - a lot.

If there was a landing page that describes what echomail is and
how to use it (either via the Telegram app, or fTelnet or
whatever interface) then they can be informed about the strange
world of BBSing via their devices too.

That's not going to happen via Googling it.

It worked well with a FUTURE4FIDO search. It can work for
other things.

They will have to see it discussed via blogs, Tweets, Facebook posts, Instagram, whatever.

Sure, that too. Start doing that. ;)

There has to be something attracting interest first.

Pretty icons help.

I think the messaging component should be promoted first, *then*
the BBS. Not the other way around as it is now.

It goes hand in hand. BBS'S and amateur computer networks have been around longer than Zuckerberg has been alive. You're not buried in advertisements because you did a websearch about headphones once to get someone a gift.

Those things have been around longer. Fine. But new people
have not. ;) I don't quite get your meaning on the latter
sentence.

But you can't simply say "Hey kids, you want echomail conferences about almost any topic you can think of?" Without also explaining about BBSes and how to use them.

But I think that would work. Hey kids.. google "fido
echomail" and maybe even the keywords "start here" and learn
that it can be a fine alternative to the usual forums and chat
sites out there. THEN, they learn that they are attached to
the strange things called BBSes. And these BBSes can be
contacted directly too.
--
../|ug

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Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 19:25, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

Area lists are usually Alphabetical by Network, I've noticed.

There isn't much that can be done about that unless you can convince
every Sysop, Software writer, Echolist manager, and who ever else is involved that I might be leaving out to change that.

The "better" systems could stand out. People can be steared to
those. It doesn't have to be every sysop that needs
convincing.

There is also something in Fidonet called ECHO ADS. It's specific
purpose is to let people know that there is an Echo about a topic. If a sysop isn't carrying a particular echo, a user can either ask the sysop
if they would, or find another BBS that does if the sysop in question doesn't want to.

But the user has to already be in the echomail world to know
about it.

There is Also Othernet ads, as well as BBS ad's which generally advertise what networks they have.

Same thing, as I stated above.

Much of the BBS and Fidonet experience has to be learned being in it.

I am only suggesting that a few echos that are suitable for
basic conversation would be a good entry point. The user can
discover more echos, what they are and what BBSes are during
the converstions.

--
../|ug

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Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 9:24 PM you wrote:

Hello Charles! ** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 19:25, Charles Pierson
wrote to August Abolins:

Area lists are usually Alphabetical by Network, I've noticed.
There isn't much that can be done about that unless you can
convince every Sysop, Software writer, Echolist manager, and who
ever else is involved that I might be leaving out to change that.

The "better" systems could stand out. People can be steared to
those. It doesn't have to be every sysop that needs convincing.

Here's the thing. I believe many if not most BBS software is fairly customizable. It's up to the sysop to set it up how they like it.

People use the software that they like. You aren't going to see much change there.

There is also something in Fidonet called ECHO ADS. It's
specific purpose is to let people know that there is an Echo
about a topic. If a sysop isn't carrying a particular echo, a
user can either ask the sysop if they would, or find another BBS
that does if the sysop in question doesn't want to.

But the user has to already be in the echomail world to know
about it.

That's an entirely separate issue.

There is Also Othernet ads, as well as BBS ad's which generally
advertise what networks they have.

Same thing, as I stated above.

Much of the BBS and Fidonet experience has to be learned being in
it.

I am only suggesting that a few echos that are suitable for
basic conversation would be a good entry point. The user can
discover more echos, what they are and what BBSes are during the converstions.

And they can't do that now why?

--
../|ug
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--
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Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 9:15 PM you wrote:

Hello Charles! ** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 19:05, Charles Pierson
wrote to August Abolins:

Telling them about echomail is somewhat useless without them
understanding BBSes are still here and operational, and do not
require computers older than they are to access.

One step at a time. The first step.. join an echo. Then they
"learn" the unique terms and further possibilities.

First Step: Learn about BBS and Echos.
Then join.

A random websearch isn't getting you there.

A "landing page" would do no more than any current BBS's Webpage
now. It would still require a specific search for BBS related
terms, so short of reading an article about BBSes somewhere, or
seeing BBS and BBS networks mentioned in their favorite social
media platform, they wouldn't know what to look for.

The page would be a tool. Stas' google search using FUTURE4FIDO
pulled up my "Help" page, first. That probably means that
Google has recognized it gets a lot of visits and is therefore "relevant". I would not dismiss the usefulness of a suitable info-page as quickly as you do. ;)

I didn't dismiss it. I said you would have to know what to search for to find it.

If I knew nothing about BBSes, or Fidonet, why on Earth would I type FUTURE4FIDO in a searchbar?

Most potential users are reading blogs and forums that cater
to their interest. Ephemeral conversation is often limited to
Facebook - because that is all they know.

And a landing page found by Google searches won't change that.

I wouldn't be so sure. People seem to think that the internet
*is* google. That's what they use - a lot.

But how are they going to have any idea of what to search FOR?

If there was a landing page that describes what echomail is
and how to use it (either via the Telegram app, or fTelnet or
whatever interface) then they can be informed about the
strange world of BBSing via their devices too.

That's not going to happen via Googling it.

It worked well with a FUTURE4FIDO search. It can work for other things.

You are purposely missing what I am saying. Without learning about bbs and echos elsewhere, they are NOT going to search for it.

They will have to see it discussed via blogs, Tweets, Facebook
posts, Instagram, whatever.

Sure, that too. Start doing that. ;)

I don't do social media like that.

There has to be something attracting interest first.

Pretty icons help.

I think the messaging component should be promoted first,
*then* the BBS. Not the other way around as it is now.

It goes hand in hand. BBS'S and amateur computer networks have
been around longer than Zuckerberg has been alive. You're not
buried in advertisements because you did a websearch about
headphones once to get someone a gift.

Those things have been around longer. Fine. But new people have
not. ;) I don't quite get your meaning on the latter sentence.

They're selling points.

But you can't simply say "Hey kids, you want echomail conferences
about almost any topic you can think of?" Without also explaining
about BBSes and how to use them.

But I think that would work. Hey kids.. google "fido echomail"
and maybe even the keywords "start here" and learn that it can
be a fine alternative to the usual forums and chat sites out
there. THEN, they learn that they are attached to the strange
things called BBSes. And these BBSes can be contacted directly
too.

That's a good way to get a few people to maybe login once.

You need something that actually gets their interest. Google this isn't it. 1000000 clickbait ads do that much.


--
Best regards!
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--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Houston, TX (1:153/757.26)

Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 21:34, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

One step at a time. The first step.. join an echo. Then they
"learn" the unique terms and further possibilities.

First Step: Learn about BBS and Echos.
Then join.

Old school. My idea is thinking a bit out of the box taking
into consideration how people actually use their devices. ;)

A random websearch isn't getting you there.

I did not suggest random. Specific keywords can be included to
narrow things down for the lazy people. Most people are lazy.
They will not necessarily be grade A student of the Charles
Method. ;) Sofar, the 1st BBS and then echos method hasn't
been working very well. The echos are just full (or not) of
sysops primarily.

"relevant". I would not dismiss the usefulness of a suitable
info-page as quickly as you do. ;)

I didn't dismiss it. I said you would have to know what to search for to find it.

Oh ok. Well, that comes from word-of-mouth, a poster in your
community, email, newsgroups, forums, etc.. spread-the-word.

The "laundry-list" (as some Chicken Little called it) of echos
and Tg links was an example. Just a start. And that was only
*within* fidonet.

If I knew nothing about BBSes, or Fidonet, why on Earth would I type FUTURE4FIDO in a searchbar?

I am not saying that is the 1st thing to enter. I was just
validating the use of using google.

People seem to think that the internet
*is* google. That's what they use - a lot.

But how are they going to have any idea of what to search FOR?

They will have an idea from people like us. Spread the word
(or words you like). Post in forums, Reddit, email, etc.. Get
the news out.

That's not going to happen via Googling it.

It worked well with a FUTURE4FIDO search. It can work for other
things.

You are purposely missing what I am saying. Without learning about bbs and echos elsewhere, they are NOT going to search for it.

And I think you are mistakingly missing what I am saying!
(Typed conversion can be so labourious). :(

Bottom line: Advertise. Inform. Eduacte. That's how. WHAT
words you use and what media you use, is up to you. Pick the
ones that will reach people.

I don't do social media like that.

Do whatever. Wear a branded T-shirt? Baseball cap? Business
cards? If you don't want to make that expense, then really the
internet (and sadly some social media) are the simpler
options.

That's a good way to get a few people to maybe login once.

You need something that actually gets their interest. Google this isn't it. 1000000 clickbait ads do that much.

Well.. you are quick to dismiss everything sofar. But do you
have any actual ideas?

--
../|ug

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Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 21:15, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

Here's the thing. I believe many if not most BBS software is fairly customizable. It's up to the sysop to set it up how they like it.

People use the software that they like. You aren't going to see much change there.

I agree. Most interfaces look old and unconvincing and
unlikely to change much. It is probably unlikely that 1st-time
visitors to a traditional BBS will hang around and make a
repeat visit when using it feels so old.

For the individual that wants to suppliment or even try an
alternative messaging world of people to connect with,
Telegram would be a good try! Primarily, it supports the
devices that people are using. There, they could meet the
wonderful chatty people like you and I that offer substance.
;)

There is also something in Fidonet called ECHO ADS. ...

But the user has to already be in the echomail world to
know about it.

That's an entirely separate issue.

I'll pass. I'm tired of trying to explain this way. A phone
call with you would probably be better to give this
conversation some closure.

I am only suggesting that a few echos that are suitable for
basic conversation would be a good entry point. The user can
discover more echos, what they are and what BBSes are during the
converstions.

And they can't do that now why?

Of course they can, but they have to get there. A landing
page (as I had mentioned at the onset of this conversation),
some info, and Telegram links, would be EASY access for the
new person. Fidonet.org isn't doing much. Something else
needs to.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.47
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Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/18/20 11:30 PM you wrote:

Hello Charles! ** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 21:34, Charles Pierson
wrote to August Abolins:

One step at a time. The first step.. join an echo. Then they
"learn" the unique terms and further possibilities.

First Step: Learn about BBS and Echos. Then join.

I deleted everything else for simplicity.

The focus of your posts has been seemingly Google search and landing page to explain echos, BBS, and the like.

I've been saying you need something before that to get people to the point of even knowing what to search for.

Going through your reply here, you finally acknowledged that you need to get the word out so people know what to search for. That's all that I've been saying.

So we're mostly on the same page, but the focus was different. Good.

Now as far as the quotes above:

One step at a time. The first step.. join an echo. Then they
"learn" the unique terms and further possibilities.

First Step: Learn about BBS and Echos. Then join.

Again, my point is How do you join an echo without having learned about BBSes and echo's first?

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just focused more on the fact that people need to learn about it's existence than on a nice looking web page for them to find when they have learned enough to search for more information.

Maybe once they learn about it, they experience some echo conversations through Telegram. Maybe the get introduced through a BBS's Web Interface, maybe something else that hasn't been thought of yet.

But the simple fact of the matter is that you have to find a way to get people interested, or the rest of it is an exercise in futility.

That's where my focus is.

--
Best regards!
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--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Houston, TX (1:153/757.26)

Hello Charles!

** On Wednesday 18.11.20 - 23:31, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

I deleted everything else for simplicity.

As will I! Good idea. ;)

The focus of your posts has been seemingly Google search and landing page to explain echos, BBS, and the like.

Sort of. The landing page would be a kind of LIST of available
echos for Telegram users. Added to that could be links to
other information. HOW people get there is not exclusive to
google. It would be up to existing users/sysops and even
moderators to get the word out. Over time, as more people
visit the landing page a google prioritizes the results and
makes the page more relevent thus making the effort to find
fidonet echos suitable for Telegram easier.

I've been saying you need something before that to get people to the
point of even knowing what to search for.

True. Start talking. ;) As you may or may not notice, I have
included some info in my Origin line space. That is another
kind of "start".

Going through your reply here, you finally acknowledged that you need to get the word out so people know what to search for. That's all that I've been saying.

Great. We agree. Whew! That was going rough for a bit. ;)

So we're mostly on the same page, but the focus was different. Good.

The landing page was just another approach to advertise and
inform. It was primarily inspired by the books2read link you
provided (I will not provide the link to keep Fidonet
"distinct" from the web). ;)

Again, my point is How do you join an echo without having learned about BBSes and echo's first?

From observing how people use their devices, they are not
going to first install Telnet software to visit a BBS that may
or may not have the "message boards" as they would call them.

That is what you are proposing should be done, first.

However, I am proposing to tell people to join Telegram and
utilize the invite links to reach new "message boards" that
are not inundated with ads, trackers and the stuff like that.
And...they can do this from the phones that they are holding
in their hands right now. Just three steps. [1] install
Telegram if not already, [2] select invite link [3] start
messaging. The rest is discovered in community.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just focused more on the fact that people need to learn about it's existence than on a nice looking web page for them to find when they have learned enough to search for more information.

Gotcha. But I think we are repeating ourselves. Promote,
advertise any way you can.

Maybe once they learn about it, they experience some echo conversations through Telegram. Maybe the get introduced through a BBS's Web Interface, maybe something else that hasn't been thought of yet.

Yes.. the discovery process begins for the user.

As for "something else that hasn't been thought of yet".. I am
not sure some sysops even want anything new beyond what they
know. (That's my reference to the reaction Telegram is having
on select few people.)

But the simple fact of the matter is that you have to find a way to get people interested, or the rest of it is an exercise in futility.

I think I can stir up interest on my side. The sysops need
all the help they can get if they enjoy seeing users
discovering echomail.


--- OpenXP 5.0.47
* Origin: Mobile? Join CHAT here: https://tinyurl.com/y5k7tsla (2:221/1.58)