On the question of the literacy of Jesus and
His knowledge of Jewish Scripture...

Frankly, I'd never given the subject much thought
prior to you making it an issue. That's how little
it concerns me. You could probably find a lot of
material on the web. A quick search turned up a
work titled:

"Jewish Scripture and the Literacy of Jesus"
by Craig Evans

http://www.craigaevans.com/evans.pdf


It's 14 full pages of text. Here are a few sentences.
Feel free to pursue a more complete answer.

Indications of Jesus' literacy may also be seen in
his familiarity with and usage of Scripture.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes
or alludes to 23 of the 36 books of the Hebrew Bible
(counting the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles
as three books, not six). Jesus alludes to or quotes
all five books of Moses, the three Major Prophets
(Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), eight of the twelve
Minor Prophets, and five of the "writings."

In other words, Jesus quotes or alludes to all of the
books of the Law, most of the Prophets, and some of
the Writings.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes or
alludes to Deuteronomy some 15 or 16 times,
Isaiah some 40 times, and the Psalms some 13 times.

These appear to be his favorite books, though Daniel
and Zechariah seem to have been favorites also.

Superficially, then, the "canon" of Jesus is pretty
much what it was for most religiously observant Jews
of his time, including - and especially - the producers
of the scrolls at Qumran. Moreover, there is evidence
that villages and synagogues in the time of Jesus
did in fact possess biblical scrolls...

Finally, the frequency and poignancy of Jesus'
employment of Aramaic tradition in his allusions and
interpretations of Scripture are suggestive of literacy,
regular participation in the synagogue (where the
Aramaic paraphrase, or Targum, developed) and
acquaintance with rabbinic and scribal education itself.

Jesus reportedly asked others if they had read Scripture
and then He quoted or alluded to it. It suggests literacy.

See:

Mark 2:25
Matthew 12:3-5
Matthew 19:4
Matthew 21:16
Mark 12:10
Mark 12:26
Luke 10:26


Evans writes:

... Jesus' rhetorical and pointed "have you
not read?" seems to be distinctive of his style
and surely would have little argumentative
force if he himself could not read.

Lee, to conclude my thoughts on this subject...
I hope you found some of this of interest.
However, I'm not seeking a long, drawn-out
discussion of these topics.





... Rock, paper, <snip>

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Hello Kevin,

Frankly, I'd never given the subject much thought
prior to you making it an issue. That's how little
it concerns me. You could probably find a lot of
material on the web. A quick search turned up a
work titled:

"Jewish Scripture and the Literacy of Jesus"
by Craig Evans

http://www.craigaevans.com/evans.pdf

It's 14 full pages of text. Here are a few sentences.
Feel free to pursue a more complete answer.

Everybody likes to speculate. Evans is no different in that regard.
However, where is the evidence that Jesus could read and write? None
is found in the gospel accounts. None is found anywhere in the books
of the Bible. Was he familiar with scripture? Of course. He was
Jewish. His mother was Jewish. His step-father was Jewish. His
relatives were Jewish. His friends were Jewish. Even his enemies
were Jewish. Certainly his mother told him bedtime stories when he
was a child. Stories such as Noah and the ark, Johah and the whale,
etc. And in the Palestine of his time, what else was there to do
with one's time except talk about religion? Aside from politics,
and the want to get rid of them hated Roman soldiers...

Indications of Jesus' literacy may also be seen in
his familiarity with and usage of Scripture.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes
or alludes to 23 of the 36 books of the Hebrew Bible
(counting the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles
as three books, not six). Jesus alludes to or quotes
all five books of Moses, the three Major Prophets
(Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), eight of the twelve
Minor Prophets, and five of the "writings."

In other words, Jesus quotes or alludes to all of the
books of the Law, most of the Prophets, and some of
the Writings.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes or
alludes to Deuteronomy some 15 or 16 times,
Isaiah some 40 times, and the Psalms some 13 times.

These appear to be his favorite books, though Daniel
and Zechariah seem to have been favorites also.

Superficially, then, the "canon" of Jesus is pretty
much what it was for most religiously observant Jews
of his time, including - and especially - the producers
of the scrolls at Qumran. Moreover, there is evidence
that villages and synagogues in the time of Jesus
did in fact possess biblical scrolls...

Finally, the frequency and poignancy of Jesus'
employment of Aramaic tradition in his allusions and
interpretations of Scripture are suggestive of literacy,
regular participation in the synagogue (where the
Aramaic paraphrase, or Targum, developed) and
acquaintance with rabbinic and scribal education itself.

Jesus reportedly asked others if they had read Scripture
and then He quoted or alluded to it. It suggests literacy.

If Jesus could read and write, why did he have to ask others
if they had read scripture? Did he need others to quote scripture
for him? Seems like it. But hey. Speculation is fun. Some
folks actually believe Jesus spoke fluent Greek. Doesn't mean
he did.

Again, where is the proof/evidence? Jesus did not write any
of the gospel accounts, or any other books of the NT. And he
most certainly did not write any books of the OT. Being familiar
with Jewish scripture and being able to read and write are not
the same thing. Every obervant Jew was familiar with scripture,
especially in regards to the Law (Mosaic Law, or the Law of
Moses). Does that mean that every Jew could read and write?
Most were poor, illiterate, and uneducated. Including Jesus.
And public schooling was not available in Palestine.

See:

Mark 2:25
Matthew 12:3-5
Matthew 19:4
Matthew 21:16
Mark 12:10
Mark 12:26
Luke 10:26

So what? Aside from one instance where Jesus doodles in the sand,
where is evidence that Jesus could read and write? Doodling pictures
in the sand is hardly what anybody would consider reading and writing.

Evans writes:

... Jesus' rhetorical and pointed "have you
not read?" seems to be distinctive of his style
and surely would have little argumentative
force if he himself could not read.

Lee, to conclude my thoughts on this subject...
I hope you found some of this of interest.
However, I'm not seeking a long, drawn-out
discussion of these topics.

Interesting, yes. Conclusive evidence that Jesus could read
and write? Hardly.

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Again, where is the proof/evidence?

Craig Evans:

Indications of Jesus' literacy may also be seen in
his familiarity with and usage of Scripture.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes
or alludes to 23 of the 36 books of the Hebrew Bible
(counting the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles
as three books, not six). Jesus alludes to or quotes
all five books of Moses, the three Major Prophets
(Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), eight of the twelve
Minor Prophets, and five of the "writings."

In other words, Jesus quotes or alludes to all of the
books of the Law, most of the Prophets, and some of
the Writings.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes or
alludes to Deuteronomy some 15 or 16 times,
Isaiah some 40 times, and the Psalms some 13 times.

If you believe Jesus actually lived and did some
of the things recorded in the Bible, the question
I'd ask *you* is "Why?" What's your reason?

Lee, I've seen enough of these kinds of arguments
demanding evidence and proof over the course of my life.
Yours is no different. You offer nothing new here.

What's your motivation?



... Can you show me some _proof_ of your identity?

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Lee Lofaso -> Kevin Gibson wrote:

If Jesus could read and write, why did he have to ask others
if they had read scripture? Did he need others to quote scripture
for him? Seems like it. But hey. Speculation is fun. Some
folks actually believe Jesus spoke fluent Greek. Doesn't mean
he did.

Again, where is the proof/evidence? Jesus did not write any
of the gospel accounts, or any other books of the NT.

Most of what we know of Socrates came from his students. Why is that? Why did Jesus write none of the gospels? Fact is most gospels were written after the fact. I would like to think that Jesus had way too much going on it write the gospels, and the disciples probably had a busy time while the three year ministry was going on, but had time to reflect on it later.

Add to that many in the early church wanted to know more about Christ, so that was even more inspiration to get the written accounts down while they could.

So what? Aside from one instance where Jesus doodles in the sand,
where is evidence that Jesus could read and write? Doodling pictures
in the sand is hardly what anybody would consider reading and writing.

Doodling pictures? We are given the impression Jesus wrote something, potentially names. No one really knows what was written, but apparently that got the point across whatever he scribed in that sand. If not literate (and I
believe He was) there was at least great skill in communicating with man.


. . Doctor Clu -drclu@swbell.net (member of...)
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--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Macintosh/20100228)
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

Hello Kevin,

Again, where is the proof/evidence?

Craig Evans:

Indications of Jesus' literacy may also be seen in
his familiarity with and usage of Scripture.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes
or alludes to 23 of the 36 books of the Hebrew Bible
(counting the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles
as three books, not six). Jesus alludes to or quotes
all five books of Moses, the three Major Prophets
(Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), eight of the twelve
Minor Prophets, and five of the "writings."

In other words, Jesus quotes or alludes to all of the
books of the Law, most of the Prophets, and some of
the Writings.

According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus quotes or
alludes to Deuteronomy some 15 or 16 times,
Isaiah some 40 times, and the Psalms some 13 times.

If you believe Jesus actually lived and did some
of the things recorded in the Bible, the question
I'd ask *you* is "Why?" What's your reason?

St. Paul told us to question. Not just some things,
but all things. I am merely taking his good advice. :)

Why do folks "believe Jesus actually lived and did some
of the things recorded in the Bible"? Because their parents
told them so.

The same can be said of a number of other things, whether it be about
religion, politics, or anything else. We believe certain things because
that is what we have been taught to believe. Not just by our parents,
but also by our peers, relatives, friends, even enemies.

Is that a reason for believing? Of course it is. Maybe not a good
reason, but a reason nonetheless. And if folks want to believe what
they have been taught to believe, without question, that's fine.
But just because they believe it is true (even if only in their own
mind), it doesn't mean it is true.

Millions upon millions of children throughout the world have been
taught to believe in Santa Claus, as if Santa Claus were a very real
person. And those millions upon millions of children honestly believe
Santa Claus is a very real person who does what they have been taught
to believe.

The point is, we should question. Not just some things, but all
things. Including our most sacredly-held beliefs. After all, that
is what St. Paul told us to do. We should take him at his word.
Or should we?

Was Jesus literate? Could he read and/or write? Considering that
less than 3 percent of the people in Roman-occupied Palestine were
literate, the real question should be "Were most people literate?"
The answer to that question is obvious. Among those who could read
and/or write, none were poor. That too, is obvious. Or should be.

The evidence presented by Evans is very scant, and far from convincing
that Jesus could read and/or write. The only evidence he presents are
accounts from the gospels which only suggest would could have been.
In other words, a contention of "maybe" Jesus could read and/or write.

Evans cites an example of Jesus "reading" from a scroll in synagogue.
How do we know Jesus was not merely going through the motions of
"reading," as some sort of religious rite? Historians have noted
orators to have held blank documents and "reading" from those documents
as their means of giving oracles. Is this what Jesus did? Perhaps.
[`Why Jesus Could Walk On The Sea But He Could Not Read And Write' (Neotestamenica 39.1, 2005), Pieter F. Craffert and Pieter J.J. Botha.]

We have no writings of Jesus. No books, papers, documents, etc.
of any kind. Only what has been written about him, by unknown
authors, in languages other than his own. What were their motives
for writing anything at all? What story did they want to tell?

Notice the contrast in how Jesus is portrayed by those promoting
what is called the "prosperity gospel". In that version, Jesus is
highly educated, a gifted speaker, friend of the wealthy, etc.

Of course, people are free to believe whatever they have been told
to believe. Many do. And many never question what they have been
told, believing every word they hear as if it was the gospel truth.

Oh how wonderful it is to believe in Santa Claus...

Lee, I've seen enough of these kinds of arguments
demanding evidence and proof over the course of my life.
Yours is no different. You offer nothing new here.

Except rare insights into the vast unknown. :)

What's your motivation?

Truth. What is your motivation?

... Can you show me some _proof_ of your identity?

I am just a blip on a computer monitor. What are you?

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * "How sweet it is!" - Jackie Gleason

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Hello Lee,

How are you doing? Local temp was a record yesterday.
Hot... hot... hot. Did you take a mini-vacation?

Let's get back to this...

Again, where is the proof/evidence?

Lee, I've seen enough of these kinds of arguments
demanding evidence and proof over the course of my life.

Can you show me some _proof_ of your identity?

I am just a blip on a computer monitor.

That's it?


... Well, that sums it up.

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Hello Greg,

If Jesus could read and write, why did he have to ask others
if they had read scripture? Did he need others to quote scripture
for him? Seems like it. But hey. Speculation is fun. Some
folks actually believe Jesus spoke fluent Greek. Doesn't mean
he did.

Again, where is the proof/evidence? Jesus did not write any
of the gospel accounts, or any other books of the NT.

Most of what we know of Socrates came from his students.
Why is that?

Because somebody wrote down what he had done and said.

Why did Jesus write none of the gospels?

Because somebody wrote down what he had done and said.

Fact is most gospels were written after the fact.

A story of a man's life. Not an autobiography.

I would like to think that Jesus had way too much going on
it write the gospels, and the disciples probably had a busy
time while the three year ministry was going on, but had
time to reflect on it later.

A busy time? Doing what? Following their Master around from place
to place around the countryside? Even after he had gone, they went
and hid. Nowhere to be found. But somehow, or so the story goes,
Jesus went and found them. Locked up inside of a room. Refusing to
leave. Scared shitless, knowing what had happened to their Master,
believing the same fate awaited them. And then, when they saw him
enter that room, they literally jumped out of their skins, as if
they had seen a ghost! Not just Thomas, but ALL of them! Except
the ladies. They knew he was real.

Anyway, it wasn't until Pentecost that his followers built up enough
courage to do anything. When they saw their Master ascending into the
clouds, they knew he was leaving them for good.

Nobody knows exactly how long Jesus' public ministry was, whether
it was six months, three years, or some other period of time. However,
that is less important than what he did. Or rather, what folks said
he did.

Jesus had no time to reflect on things later, after his public
ministry was over, as he was dead. The apostles had no time to
reflect on things either, as they had other, far more important
things to do. Even after their Master had left them.

Add to that many in the early church wanted to know more
about Christ, so that was even more inspiration to get the
written accounts down while they could.

Much has been written about the late Jesus. But how much do we
know is true? What did he look like? Was he a tall white guy
with blond hair and blue eyes, having long straight hair? Or was
he a short black man with kinky hair, kind of like a black version
of Danny Devito? Maybe he was bald, or had a receding hairline,
as depicted in early paintings of him. What kind of clothes did
he wear? Was he straight? Was he gay? Was he bi? Was he married?
Maybe he was polygamous, as he always traveled about with lots of
women in tow. Was he a druggie, hallucinating on magic mushrooms?
Did he smoke pot? Was he an alcoholic? He certainly liked to drink
wine. As did his disciples. Sometimes to the point of excess, leaving
none for others. Was he a glutton for food? Did he walk with a limp,
have a patch over one eye, or have disabilities? Perhaps a learning
disorder? We really don't know, and have no way of knowing.

We do not know who wrote the gospel accounts. Each gospel account
was written for a specific audience, by different authors. Obviously,
each author was going to paint a positive picture of Jesus. Later,
church leaders got together and decided which books would be included
in what is known today as the new testament. Only those accounts
deemed worthy by those church leaders got into print.

Consider how many different gospel accounts were floating about.
Consider how many different letters were floating about.
Consider how many different apocalypses were floating about.

Only a handful were deemed worthy of inclusion. So what do we
really know about the late Jesus? Is the Jesus you think you know
really the same Jesus that existed so long ago? Are his teachings
really what you think they are?

What would happen if a new gospel were to be uncovered, or discovered?
Suppose an actual gospel written by one of the apostles was discovered?
A first-hand, eyewitness account. Would that new gospel be accepted by
the church, and by Christians? Or would it be rejected, out of hand,
just because some Christian leaders say that gospel is anti-Christian?

My guess is that new gospel would be destroyed. Before anybody else
even found out about it.

Continued to next message

* SLMR 2.1a * This old dumb piano player just can't figure it out.

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Continued from previous message

So what? Aside from one instance where Jesus doodles in the sand, >LL>where is evidence that Jesus could read and write? Doodling pictures >LL>in the sand is hardly what anybody would consider reading and writing.

Doodling pictures?

Seems like it. Although he may have been simply doodling, with no clear picture of anything in mind. Such doodling is an old Middle Eastern
tradition. Not just among Jews. But given the passage, it seems likely
Jesus may have actually drawn a picture. Or possibly two pictures.

We are given the impression Jesus wrote something, potentially names.

Why would Jesus write down names, if any other kind of writing?
Who else would be able to read such names? Who else would be able
to read anything? Aside from pictures, that is. Jesus was not
exactly addressing a college audience. More like a group of old
men intent on stoning a young woman to death.

No one really knows what was written, but apparently that got the
point across whatever he scribed in that sand.

It is a very interesting passage. Most folks got it the first time.
But not everybody. So Jesus had to draw another picture. That picture
left no doubt, and the rest easily grasped what Jesus was getting at.

If not literate (and I believe He was) there was at least great skill
in communicating with man.

Whether Jesus could, or could not, read and/or write is a matter
of conjecture, or personal opinion, there being no way of knowing
for sure one way or the other. The gospel accounts say little,
and provide only scanty evidence of "maybe" he could read and/or
write. Nothing that would constitute proof beyond a reasonable
doubt, or proof the average person would be led to believe Jesus
could in fact read and/or write.

Communicating with man, revealing religious truths.
That is what his public ministry was all about.
Not whether Jesus could, or could not, read and/or write.

Was it necessary for Jesus to have been a man of letters, a truly
educated man, well-versed and author of texts, in order to present
his message to the world? I don't think so.

Unfortunately, not everybody listened, or wanted to listen.
Some folks actually thought he was a politician, trying to become
a real Messiah, in some crazy idea to lead a Jewish nation against
the hated Romans.

But that is not why Jesus was pegged to a tree and left to die.

Notice the inscription on top of the tree, left there for all
to read. Notice who read it. Notice who asked to have it taken
down. Notice who refused to have it taken down.

Who was being dissed? And why?

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * This old dumb piano player just can't figure it out.

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Hello Kevin,

How are you doing? Local temp was a record yesterday.
Hot... hot... hot. Did you take a mini-vacation?

Melted away for a while. Happens this time of year. Every year.

Let's get back to this...

Again, where is the proof/evidence?

Lee, I've seen enough of these kinds of arguments
demanding evidence and proof over the course of my life.

Can you show me some _proof_ of your identity?

I am just a blip on a computer monitor.

That's it?

Okay. A blip on _somebody's_ computer monitor.

... Well, that sums it up.

There is also another blip on _somebody else's_ computer monitor...

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * Im he as ur he as ur me n w'r ll 2gtha

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)

Hello Lee,

Again, where is the proof/evidence?

Can you show me some _proof_ of your identity?

I am just a blip on a computer monitor.

That's it?

Okay. A blip on _somebody's_ computer monitor.

And you think that constitutes proof of identity?

There is also another blip on _somebody else's_ computer monitor...

But, "Lee Lofaso" represents himself as being a piano player.

Then again, maybe *you* are not a real person.
Can _somebody_ verify your identity?
If so, would that be _proof_ ?

*You* asked for evidence / proof.

You begin. Take the lead, Lee.

Show some _proof_ of your identity.





... But it knows any friend it has met once before...

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)