• Is this echo dead?

    From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:49:22
    I haven't seen much traffic here.

    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Monday, August 01, 2011 11:25:14
    Hello Björn,

    I haven't seen much traffic here.

    Sorry about that. There was a conspiracy
    keeping me about. And away. From it all.

    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    Everything is a conspiracy.
    And everyone plays a part.
    Whether knowingly, or unknowingly.
    Willingly, or unwillingly.

    Will have details on new conspiracies arriving shortly.
    Including some that are absolutely out of this world.
    Please feel free to contribute.
    Add your own conspiracy.
    Whether ancient or modern, sensical or nonsensical.
    The world is an oyster, who will find the pearl?

    Lee Lofaso
    Moderator, Consprcy echo

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:221/361 to Lee Lofaso on Monday, August 01, 2011 16:58:15
    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    Everything is a conspiracy.

    Yeah, well, the funny thing is that your message made it through Ross' system to Finland, while mine wasn't -- posted from the same system and with the same path: 203/2 0 123/500 140/1. Go figure...

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616
    * Origin: *** RBB *** JamNNTPd/OS2 *** nntp://nntp.rbb.bbs.fi *** (2:221/361)
  • From Lee Lofaso@3:800/432 to BjöRn Felten on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 11:27:16
    Hello Bjorn,

    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    Everything is a conspiracy.

    Yeah, well, the funny thing is that your message made it
    through Ross' system to Finland, while mine wasn't --
    posted from the same system and with the same path: 203/2 0
    123/500 140/1. Go figure...

    This one bypasses Ross' system completely, as well as Europe,
    coming from Australia. :)

    --Lee


    * SLMR 2.1a * All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?

    --- Maximus 3.01
    * Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)
  • From Björn Felten@3:640/384 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, August 03, 2011 05:13:51
    coming from Australia. :)

    This one too.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Steve Kemp@1:123/789 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, September 06, 2011 04:19:21

    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    I suspect you mean Cassell.

    Yeah, he owns FIDO now.

    And, Yeah, he likes to fuck with people for no reason sometimes, as well. Whenever the power trip hits, eh!

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...
    or whatever power people can find to exercise in their
    tiny minds and "elite" venues.

    It's, as always, pathetic.

    Fido ALWAYS worked best with the least authoritarianism.!
    That's why it's nothing now.

    Stupid kids had to stomp upon freedom!

    It seems the Tea Baggers might have started here!\

    Stupidity ALWAYS rules the "ruling class" of moderation/moderators!

    People that DARE tell others how it must be done!

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; WOW64; rv:6.0.1) Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/6.
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Steve Kemp on Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:29:00
    Steve Kemp wrote to Björn Felten <=-


    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    I suspect you mean Cassell.

    Yeah, he owns FIDO now.


    Ok, I'll bite. How does one person own Fido? Or at least screw it up?





    --kW

    kurt weiske │ realitycheckbbs.org
    kweiske@realitycheckbbs.org
    │ 1:218/700@fidonet


    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS | http://www.realitycheckbbs.org (1:218/700)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to KURT WEISKE on Sunday, September 11, 2011 14:53:52


    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    I suspect you mean Cassell.

    Yeah, he owns FIDO now.

    Ok, I'll bite. How does one person own Fido? Or at least
    screw it up?

    By being a key middleman between significant sysops.

    He refuses to recognize moderator decisions arbitrarily, and can
    interfere as he wishes.



    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... Hate is a black hole...the more it consumes the more it can suck in.
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Monday, September 12, 2011 22:39:51
    Hello Bob,

    Wazzup? Is Ross censuring this echo too?

    I suspect you mean Cassell.

    Yeah, he owns FIDO now.

    Ok, I'll bite. How does one person own Fido? Or at least
    screw it up?

    By being a key middleman between significant sysops.

    He refuses to recognize moderator decisions arbitrarily, and can
    interfere as he wishes.

    A conspiracy, by definition, consists of two or more people.
    Except in one instance, which is a technical matter for legal
    proceedings.

    One could call the present scenario a clique, the players
    being a trio of actors of which Ross is one of them. If you
    allow them to ruin your day, they will gladly do so. But that
    does not mean you have to let them ruin your day. Now, if you
    like bad acting, then I say go for it. Play their game. On
    the other hand, if you do not like bad acting, then maybe it
    is best to play your own game rather than theirs. That way,
    if they want to play, they have to play on your terms rather
    than theirs. And they won't like that. Which is why they
    will rant and rave until they run out of breath (or cyberspace).

    Hate is a black hole...the more it consumes the more it can suck in.

    A spinning black hole.
    Sucking it all in, and spewing it all out.
    Kind of like a vacuum cleaner.
    Picks up the dirt.
    Redeposits it elsewhere.
    Only in this case, into an alternate universe.
    And that is where the real fun begins...

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 17:33:12
    One could call the present scenario a clique, the players
    being a trio of actors of which Ross is one of them.

    Conspiring to a hostile take-over of one of the most prominent echoes in fidonet -- FIDONEWS, and the associated e-zine -- seemingly takes more from the
    conspirators than they could handle.

    Even though I think that you, Lee, was a wee bit over the top in your comment to Gary when he gave up just a few of weeks after having been appointed
    Editor Puppy by the Troika, I can understand your frustration, given the way you have been treated by said Troika over the years. With Ross' absolutely appalling comment to you a month or so ago -- and the rest of the cheering Z1-gang thinking it was just "humor" --
    as an absolute low.

    If you allow them to ruin your day, they will gladly do so.

    But we will not let them, will we? I'm happy to see that not all USAians are
    like the NAB Troika expect them to be. I've seen numerous comments telling the Troika what they think about their actions, and it makes me believe that there's still hope for large parts of zone 1.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 17:45:18
    Hello Björn,

    One could call the present scenario a clique, the players
    being a trio of actors of which Ross is one of them.

    Conspiring to a hostile take-over of one of the most prominent
    echoes in fidonet -- FIDONEWS, and the associated e-zine --
    seemingly takes more from the conspirators than they could handle.

    Although it may appear to some to be a "hostile take-over", it is
    more like the creation of a newsgroup. And not a particularly popular
    one, at that.

    Fidonet echos are designed to allow participants to participate -
    without ever having to ask for permission from a "moderator" to do
    so. Any so-called "echo" that fails to uphold that standard is not
    a fidonet echo.

    Even though I think that you, Lee, was a wee bit over the top in
    your comment to Gary when he gave up just a few of weeks after
    having been appointed Editor Puppy by the Troika, I can understand
    your frustration, given the way you have been treated by said Troika
    over the years.

    Gary resorted to a classic argumentum ad misericordiam - an appeal
    to pity/appeal to sympathy. I merely called him on it, in a nice way,
    calling him a "pawn" of the so-called "troika". Had I wanted to be
    more direct, I would have called him a "toadie." Which is, btw, the
    more accurate term.

    For those unfamiliar with this logical fallacy (appeal to pity),
    it is an attempt to gain agreement by sympathy or empathy. It has
    absolutely nothing to do with evidence. "Please feel so sorry for
    me because I murdered my parents and am now an orphan." That sort
    of warped logic. Gary wants to show the world he has a deserving
    cause. He wants others to put themselves in his place, to put
    themselves in his shoes and see his own sorry plight. None of what
    he said has to be true. He could have made it all up. And even
    if all of what he did say is true, it makes no difference. None
    of it has anything to do with what was done to you (and the fidonet
    community) by the troika consisting of Ross Cassell, Janis Kracht,
    and Bob Seaborn.

    The form of the "argument" goes like this -

    1. P is presented, with the intent to create pity.
    2. Therefore claim C is true.

    Kind of silly, isn't it? Silly because pity does not serve as
    evidence. And yet, that is exactly what Gary is attempting to do.

    I'll make it even more clear to you, and others, with this example -

    "You must accept that 1 + 1 = 97, after all I'm dying..."

    Well, golly gee. You might have pity on me because I'm dying.
    But that would hardly make my claim of 1 + 1 = 97 being true, now
    would it?

    You will also find the troika using a strange variant of this
    logical fallacy, sometimes found on Usenet, that goes like this -
    One of them refuses to answer questions about their claims, on
    grounds that the person who is asking those questions is being
    mean and has hurt their feelings. Like a deer caught in the
    headlights, they will refuse to answer the questions, and maybe
    tell others how wrong the person who asked those questions is
    for having asked those questions. Always without answering
    the questions.

    With Ross' absolutely appalling comment to you a month or so
    ago -- and the rest of the cheering Z1-gang thinking it was just
    "humor" -- as an absolute low.

    Ross often resorts to ad hominems, as he has nothing else to
    support his claims (whether real or imagined). It is more like
    argument by vehemence than anything else, as if being the loudest
    and most obnoxious person in fidoland is always right. Trial
    lawyers are taught early on how to deal with this, the rule being -

    If you have the facts, pound on the facts.
    If you have the law, pound on the law.
    If you don't have either, pound on the table.

    I say let Ross keep pounding on that table.

    If you allow them to ruin your day, they will gladly do so.

    But we will not let them, will we?

    I'm having fun with this. :)

    I'm happy to see that not all USAians are like the NAB Troika
    expect them to be. I've seen numerous comments telling the Troika
    what they think about their actions, and it makes me believe that
    there's still hope for large parts of zone 1.

    Most sysops in zone 1 are not aware of what is going on in regards
    to the Fidonews echo. Some who are aware have left fido completely.
    Others refuse to make the echo available for those who wish to
    participate. But here is the reality of what Fidonews echo should
    be -

    The Fidonews is published by the entire fidonet community.
    Not by any particular individual or small group of individuals
    within or outside of the fidonet community. The Fidonews echo
    consists of the entire fidonet community, regardless of "zone",
    meaning there are no zones dividing the fidonet community.

    The troika consisting of Ross Cassell, Janis Kracht, and Bob
    Seaborn have been automatically excommunicated from fidonet (as
    noted in P4) due to their actions. Therefore, their "fidonews"
    echo is not affiliated with fidonet in any way, shape, or form.

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 18:31:47
    within or outside of the fidonet community. The Fidonews echo
    consists of the entire fidonet community, regardless of "zone",
    meaning there are no zones dividing the fidonet community.

    Ever since I first became editor and moderator, almost ten years ago, I've stated clearly, numerous times, that it is an echo of the people, by the people, for the people -- not of the Troika, by the Troika, for the Troika.

    The users decide what they want to see in the echo, and I will never try to influence their choices. To the big dismay for the Khontrol freaks in the Troika. If they didn't like it, they could easily vote with their feet -- but that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted it all. All the collateral damage
    was unimportant.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 22:44:05
    Hello Björn,

    within or outside of the fidonet community. The Fidonews echo
    consists of the entire fidonet community, regardless of "zone",
    meaning there are no zones dividing the fidonet community.

    Ever since I first became editor and moderator, almost ten years ago, I've stated clearly, numerous times, that it is an echo of the people, by the people, for the people -- not of the Troika, by the Troika, for the
    Troika.

    The users decide what they want to see in the echo, and I will never try
    to
    influence their choices. To the big dismay for the Khontrol freaks in the Troika. If they didn't like it, they could easily vote with their feet -- but that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted it all. All the collateral damage was unimportant.

    Exactly! And that is the true spirit of democracy in action!
    "What do the people want?" That is the question what should always
    be asked, and to be remembered. A moderator should always seek to
    help facilitate debate, not to hinder it.

    Also, a word of note. Some folks get "freedom of speech" and
    "freedom of the press" confused. The two terms are not synonymous.
    The First Amendment of the US Constitution states four freedoms -

    1. Religion
    2. Freedom of Speech and of the Press
    3. The Right to Peaceably Assemble
    4. The Right to Petition the Government for Redress (correction)
    of Grievances

    All of these rights concern freedom of the mind and conscience.

    Let's see what you can come up with in regards to Fidonews (and/or
    other echos) and Fidonet. All are welcome to chime in as well with
    their own thoughts.

    Could be an interesting thread. ;)

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 19:50:59
    Re: The Fidonews saga goes on
    By: Lee Lofaso to Björn Felten on Wed Sep 14 2011 05:45 pm

    The troika consisting of Ross Cassell, Janis Kracht, and Bob
    Seaborn have been automatically excommunicated from fidonet (as
    noted in P4) due to their actions. Therefore, their "fidonews"
    echo is not affiliated with fidonet in any way, shape, or form.

    Really? Odd, since they still show up in my nodelist - and the word "excommunicated" doesn't show up anywhere in P4.

    Please clarify.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS | http://www.realitycheckbbs.org (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 19:58:51
    Re: The Fidonews saga goes on
    By: Kurt Weiske to Lee Lofaso on Wed Sep 14 2011 07:50 pm

    Really? Odd, since they still show up in my nodelist - and the word "excommunicated" doesn't show up anywhere in P4.


    My bad on #2 - I was reading a truncated version of P4 - and it's been years since I read the whole thing. #1 stands.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS | http://www.realitycheckbbs.org (1:218/700)
  • From Björn Felten@3:640/384 to Kurt Weiske on Thursday, September 15, 2011 17:39:08
    the word "excommunicated" doesn't show up anywhere in P4.

    What version is that? In my version (4.07) I have "2.1.12 Excommunication".

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Björn Felten on Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:47:00
    Björn Felten wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

    the word "excommunicated" doesn't show up anywhere in P4.

    What version is that? In my version (4.07) I have "2.1.12 Excommunication".


    The version that was truncated before section 2. :)


    kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
    realitycheckBBS | http://realitycheckbbs.org




    kurt weiske │ realitycheckbbs.org
    kweiske@realitycheckbbs.org
    │ 1:218/700@fidonet


    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS | http://www.realitycheckbbs.org (1:218/700)
  • From Nicholas Loch@1:227/201 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, September 16, 2011 00:01:29
    wrote:



    Also, a word of note. Some folks get "freedom of speech" and
    "freedom of the press" confused. The two terms are not synonymous.
    The First Amendment of the US Constitution states four freedoms -

    1. Religion
    2. Freedom of Speech and of the Press
    3. The Right to Peaceably Assemble
    4. The Right to Petition the Government for Redress (correction)
    of Grievances

    All of these rights concern freedom of the mind and conscience.

    Let's see what you can come up with in regards to Fidonews (and/or
    other echos) and Fidonet. All are welcome to chime in as well with
    their own thoughts.

    I'll chime in....

    I am not familiar with any ownership rights that FidoNet may have (guess I need to read the docs again), however freedom of speech is not a right on Fidonet or any other public but privately owned computer network. Example:
    I run a BBS, it is a public forum, however it belongs to me and I dictate policy.. Same thing goes when posting messages on any website..the websites owner decides what language is allowed and who is allowed to view or post on it. My BBS is part of the FidoNet network, I agreed when I signed up to follow the policies as set forth by the FidoNet administration and as such
    the users of my BBS are bound by that same agreement. Bottom line...
    Freedom of speech is not guaranteed on the private property of others...be
    it their backyard or thier computer network forums.

    Could be an interesting thread. ;)

    I'm sure someone is going to disagree.... and they do have the right to do so... but, if the Moderator says to cease, we cease. We've all agreed to FidoNet's policy. Through our use of this system alone, whether we've read the rule or not, we agree to abide by the rules as set forth in the FidoNet policy4 document..

    Do you agree?

    That's just my 2 cents...You can keep the Change!

    --

    Nicholas Loch (Fat Rastus) | Electronic Warfare BBS
    telnet://ewbbs.synchro.net | http://ewbbs.fatrastus.com
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Linux
    * Origin: Electronic Warfare BBS|Telnet://ewbbs.synchro.net (1:227/201)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to BJöRN FELTEN on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 16:14:46

    ...

    The users decide what they want to see in the echo, and
    I will never try to influence their choices. To the big
    dismay for the Khontrol freaks in the Troika. If they
    didn't like it, they could easily vote with their feet
    -- but that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted it
    all. All the collateral damage was unimportant.

    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.


    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... Chain Tagline. Now stolen [268] times. Add 1 as stolen.
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to LEE LOFASO on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 16:14:06

    ...

    The users decide what they want to see in the echo, and I will never try
    to
    influence their choices. To the big dismay for the Khontrol freaks in the
    Troika. If they didn't like it, they could easily vote with their feet --
    but that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted it all. All the
    collateral damage was unimportant.

    Exactly! And that is the true spirit of democracy in
    action! "What do the people want?" That is the question
    what should always be asked, and to be remembered. A
    moderator should always seek to help facilitate debate, not
    to hinder it.

    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.



    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... The magic of Windows: Turns a Pentium into an XT, instantly.
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to NICHOLAS LOCH on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 16:17:24

    ...

    I am not familiar with any ownership rights that FidoNet
    may have (guess I need to read the docs again), however
    freedom of speech is not a right on Fidonet or any other
    public but privately owned computer network. Example: I
    run a BBS, it is a public forum, however it belongs to me
    and I dictate policy.. Same thing goes when posting
    messages on any website..the websites owner decides what
    language is allowed and who is allowed to view or post on

    That is how I learned the rules for echos. They are private
    property of the moderators.

    I'm sure someone is going to disagree.... and they do have
    the right to do so... but, if the Moderator says to cease,
    we cease. We've all agreed to

    Ross Cassell does not agree with that. I have had problems with
    some banned from the Debate echo who refuse to accept that rule.



    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... Paradox is your friend.
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Thursday, September 22, 2011 13:27:26
    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.

    No need to. Libel and defamation is illegal in all civilized countries, and the law always supersedes any echo rules.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Nicholas Loch on Sunday, September 25, 2011 00:33:59
    Hello Nicholas,

    Nicholas Loch -> Lee Lofaso expressed precisely :

    Also, a word of note. Some folks get "freedom of speech" and
    "freedom of the press" confused. The two terms are not synonymous.
    The First Amendment of the US Constitution states four freedoms -

    1. Religion
    2. Freedom of Speech and of the Press
    3. The Right to Peaceably Assemble
    4. The Right to Petition the Government for Redress (correction)
    of Grievances

    All of these rights concern freedom of the mind and conscience.

    Let's see what you can come up with in regards to Fidonews (and/or
    other echos) and Fidonet. All are welcome to chime in as well with
    their own thoughts.

    I'll chime in....

    The sound of many chimes...


    I am not familiar with any ownership rights that FidoNet may have (guess I need to read the docs again), however freedom of speech is not a right on Fidonet or any other public but privately owned computer network.
    Example:
    I run a BBS, it is a public forum, however it belongs to me and I dictate policy.. Same thing goes when posting messages on any website..the
    websites
    owner decides what language is allowed and who is allowed to view or post
    on
    it. My BBS is part of the FidoNet network, I agreed when I signed up to follow the policies as set forth by the FidoNet administration and as such the users of my BBS are bound by that same agreement. Bottom line... Freedom of speech is not guaranteed on the private property of others...be it their backyard or thier computer network forums.

    That would be nice if all FidoNet administrators/sysops were to abide
    by the very policies they expect everybody else to. Most notably P4.
    However, certain administrators and sysops have chosen to ignore P4,
    treating the document as nothing more than a "goddamn piece of paper"
    - thus placing themselves "above the fidolaw".

    You mentioned "ownership rights". Here is my view -

    Ownership of FidoNet is (and should remain) in the hands of the entire
    fidonet community - sysops and non-sysops alike. FidoNet was created
    by sysops, and administered by sysops, as it should be. Because those
    very sysops who created FidoNet also invited non-sysops to participate,
    those sysops (as well as those sysops who joined FidoNet afterwards)
    have welcomed all as being part of the fidonet community.

    Now for my opinion on freedom of speech, in regards to FidoNet -

    Note - sysops have absolute right over their own system/computer.
    That is a different issue. After all, sysops can choose to invite
    others, or choose not to invite others, to use their system.

    The term "freedom of speech" is a relative right, not an absolute
    right. However, it is not discriminatory, with some having more rights
    than others. IOW, all within the group have the same rights. But can
    differ from echo to echo. For example -

    * Technical echoes require strict rules in order for discussions to remain on topic.
    * General chat echoes need only a very loose set of rules, as topics
    can vary greatly.
    * Designated flame echoes have no rules, as there can be no such thing
    as a flame echo with rules (contradiction of terms).

    There are differences between fidonet echoes and newsgroups or usenet -

    A fidonet echo has a moderator, who posts a set of rules for that
    echo. Or in the case of designated flame echoes, no set of rules.
    Participants and lurkers are invited, and all are welcome to send
    and receive messages without having to ask for prior permission
    from the moderator. Messages are posted for all to see, uncensored
    by the moderator.

    A newsgroup has a moderator who pre-selects who can and cannot send
    and/or receive messages in the forum. In order to participate, an
    individual has to "subscribe" to the newsgroup and get permission from
    the moderator to post messages. Messages can also be deleted by the
    moderator before they are actually posted to the group.

    Could be an interesting thread. ;)


    I'm sure someone is going to disagree....

    In FidoNet? You gotta be kiddin' me. :)

    and they do have the right to do so...

    According to some, it is "my way or the highway."

    but, if the Moderator says to cease, we cease.

    Some do. Others don't.

    We've all agreed to FidoNet's policy.

    Just because all sysops agreed to abide by FidoNet's policy (P4)
    does not mean that all sysops actually abide by that policy.

    Through our use of this system alone, whether we've read
    the rule or not, we agree to abide by the rules as set forth in the
    FidoNet
    policy4 document..

    In order to own a node, a sysop must agree to abide by P4.
    However, some sysops have chosen to ignore P4. And that means,
    according to P4, those sysops no longer own a valid node.
    Automatic excommunication is the term used in P4.

    Do you agree?

    Some sysops believe in P4, just as some folks believe in the
    US Constitution. But what happens when sysops no longer believe
    in P4, or when folks no longer believe in the US Constitution?
    The document is no longer relevant, and becomes meaningless.
    "Just a goddamn piece of paper", as a former president is
    alleged to have said.

    That's just my 2 cents...You can keep the Change!

    Why are pennies still being made? It costs more than a penny
    to make a penny. So what is the logic? And what the heck can
    you buy with a penny, anyway?

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Sunday, September 25, 2011 00:34:06
    Hello Bob,

    BOB KLAHN -> LEE LOFASO was thinking very hard :
    ...

    The users decide what they want to see in the echo, and I will never
    try
    to
    influence their choices. To the big dismay for the Khontrol freaks
    in the
    Troika. If they didn't like it, they could easily vote with their
    feet --
    but that wasn't good enough for them; they wanted it all. All the
    collateral damage was unimportant.

    Exactly! And that is the true spirit of democracy in
    action! "What do the people want?" That is the question
    what should always be asked, and to be remembered. A
    moderator should always seek to help facilitate debate, not
    to hinder it.

    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.

    Designated flame echoes must allow personal attacks, as there
    can be no rules (with one exception) in such echoes. The only rule
    that exists (whether stated or unstated) in all fidonet echoes is
    "no illegal activity", or words to that effect. That would include
    in designated flame echoes.

    However, I would tend to agree with your original statement, as
    noted in P4 the implication being if personal attacks are allowed
    by some then personal attacks are allowed for all meaning in effect
    for all practical purposes that echo is or has become a designated
    flame echo.

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sunday, September 25, 2011 00:34:14
    Hello Björn,

    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.

    No need to. Libel and defamation is illegal in all civilized
    countries, and the law always supersedes any echo rules.

    Of course. But personal attacks are not necessarily libel
    or defamation. The question is, should personal attacks be
    allowed in an echo? And if so, under what circumstances?
    In a designated flame echo, personal attacks are the norm.
    But then, participants enter at their own risk, knowing
    what to expect.

    But not all echoes are designated flame echoes. Nor are all
    echoes intended to be designated flame echoes. So when does an
    echo become a designated flame echo? When personal attacks are
    allowed. If personal attacks are allowed for some, personal
    attacks are allowed for all. It's (implied) in P4.

    --Lee

    --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, September 25, 2011 16:25:08
    Of course. But personal attacks are not necessarily libel
    or defamation.

    I beg to differ. Maybe it's just another huge cultural difference? Over here, personal attacks in the written form (such as in fidonet) is always judged as libel (or similar -- we have a wide variety of this in our law books).

    And that's just it. It's so difficult to judge what is this and what is that, it's nothing that should be left to megalomaniac echomail moderators to decide. Should the need ever arise, it should be left to the professionals in the judicial system to make the decision.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to BJöRN FELTEN on Thursday, September 29, 2011 21:09:10
    I would amend that to exclude personal attacks. When personal
    attacks are allowed personal attacks take over.

    No need to. Libel and defamation is illegal in all
    civilized countries, and the law always supersedes any
    echo rules.

    Civilized? Where's that?

    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... Why is "bra" singular and "panties" plural?
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to BOB KLAHN on Friday, September 30, 2011 16:15:26
    Civilized? Where's that?

    LOL!

    Have I told you that I love you, Bob? No, no, no, not that way -- I'm a happily married man with two great kids. one a doctor of medicine and one a civil engineer -- but as a very interesting fidonet contributor!

    I hope that you can keep up your fidonet presence for yet another bundle of year, Bob!

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to BJöRN FELTEN on Thursday, October 06, 2011 17:40:52

    Civilized? Where's that?

    LOL!

    Have I told you that I love you, Bob? No, no, no, not
    that way -- I'm a happily married man with two great
    kids. one a doctor of medicine and one a civil engineer
    -- but as a very interesting fidonet contributor!

    I hope that you can keep up your fidonet presence for
    yet another bundle of year, Bob!

    IF it's worth it. Getting less so all the time.



    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

    ... As inevitable as death, taxes, and America On-Line disks.
    --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)
  • From Steve Kemp@1:123/789 to BOB KLAHN on Sunday, October 30, 2011 03:56:19

    Ross Cassell does not agree with that. I have had problems with
    some banned from the Debate echo who refuse to accept that rule.

    Ross jumped in like a blind drunk and started "cleaning up" FIDO a while back when FIDO didn't need cleaning!

    EXACTLY when it was BOOMING, actually!

    He did what Steve Q. did to HolySmoke...he destroyed it!

    HolySmoke was BOOMING and then Steve Q. "woke up" as mod and stopped the 400-500 posts a day!

    What the fuck?!

    Then comes Cassell, taking over multiple echoes.
    Pulling the same "rules".

    He's a power hungry asshole that has helped destroy Fido! Tis' true.

    Seriously, there has to be only...maybe, 200 Fido people left.
    (look at the stats).

    HE DID THAT!

    He THINKS he's doing good though.

    Like anti-Choice people think they are doing good.
    How anti-Porn people think they are doing good.
    Like people that believe you must "find Jesus" think they are doing good.

    No matter what anyone else believes. Ross is CORRECT!

    God-like powers aren't self correcting though.

    He is watching us...and we WILL PAY!

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; WOW64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)
  • From WAYNE CHIRNSIDE@1:123/140 to STEVE KEMP on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:11:00
    Ross Cassell does not agree with that. I have had problems with
    some banned from the Debate echo who refuse to accept that rule.

    Ross jumped in like a blind drunk and started "cleaning up" FIDO a while
    back
    when FIDO didn't need cleaning!

    EXACTLY when it was BOOMING, actually!

    He did what Steve Q. did to HolySmoke...he destroyed it!

    HolySmoke was BOOMING and then Steve Q. "woke up" as mod and stopped the 400-500 posts a day!

    What the fuck?!

    Then comes Cassell, taking over multiple echoes.
    Pulling the same "rules".

    He's a power hungry asshole that has helped destroy Fido! Tis' true.

    Seriously, there has to be only...maybe, 200 Fido people left.
    (look at the stats).

    HE DID THAT!

    He THINKS he's doing good though.

    I can improve naught upon this post but to observe your error above
    wherein you state, "he thinks."
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140)