• Observations of the current ELIST.RPT

    From Vincent Coen@2:250/1 to All on Saturday, January 08, 2022 15:43:29
    Hello All!

    When browsing through the latest full ELIST.RPT report that also contains all the posted RULes files etc I have spotted some issues :

    1. The text at the right of lines have been cut off and this is due to posters NOT counting the number of characters per line and moving the offending word over to the next line. - The character limit per line is 75.
    This also applies to the descriptions.

    2. Some descriptions and Rules have not been passed through a spelling checker to catch your typo's, please do so and yes I am also guilty sometimes.

    3. Check the rest of the content for your echo's is still correct including using valid names as moderator, from and origin. If some one attempts to contact you via netmail will your system know the non real name and pass it on to you?
    'Waldo . . .' springs to mind.
    Like wise the other items, no typo's, moderator list is still correct and there
    is no duplication of mod and comods (if so, delete the comod as a special update). Are you making use of the width for descriptions instead of only using
    35 - 40 characters per line. Or do you know something I don't?

    4. Any echo that has the only moderator no longer in fido etc that needs a new moderator to take over. Yes the elist maintainer can do so if really required but I would prefer to stick to just looking after the software and it's application plus I am coming up to 75 so could use a younger person to do the honours.

    5. Any other cock ups? :)

    6. Any thing else I missed ?

    If you would like to get the current versions of these report files namely ELIST.RPT, .NO. NA etc point your browser to :

    http://www.applewoodbbs.linkpc.net/files/Elist/nightly-builds/

    Where you can find all three (you do not need to elist-nightly.rar archive as thats the software - well not unless you are interested it it).

    These three files can be generated during the course of a month other than the 1st or 2nd for security checks or other mundane reasons.

    Useful perhaps to verify your updates now as against waiting till the new month
    for the latest ELst archive ?

    Vincent
    --- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: The Elist Maintainer (2:250/1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Vincent Coen on Saturday, January 08, 2022 12:33:36

    On 2022 Jan 08 15:43:28, you wrote to All:

    3. Check the rest of the content for your echo's is still correct including
    using valid names as moderator, from and origin. If some one attempts to contact you via netmail will your system know the non real name and pass it
    on to you? 'Waldo . . .' springs to mind.

    Waldo's Majik Fingers is an alias, so yes... netmails to that name do appear in a valid mailbox... whether that mailbox is checked on a regular basis or not is another question/matter ;)

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... When I get hungry, things die.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Vincent Coen on Saturday, January 08, 2022 18:56:26
    Hi Vincent,

    On 2022-01-08 15:43:29, you wrote to All:

    6. Any thing else I missed ?

    Maybe the use of Distribution: could be a bit better defined. Currently it's rather a mess, these are the ones currently in use:

    DISTribution: All FidoNet
    DISTribution: All Fidonet Backbones
    DISTribution: All Fidonet distribution paths
    DISTribution: All Fidonet distribution paths.
    DISTribution: All Official Fidonet Backbones
    DISTribution: All Zones
    DISTribution: Backbone
    DISTribution: Backbone & FidoWeb
    DISTribution: Direct
    DISTribution: Everywhere
    DISTribution: FIDO
    DISTribution: FIDONet Backbone
    DISTribution: Fidonet
    DISTribution: Fidonet + Telegram
    DISTribution: Fidonet Backbone
    DISTribution: Fidonet Region 18
    DISTribution: Fidonet Region 18 ONLY!
    DISTribution: None
    DISTribution: Not outside Fidonet
    DISTribution: Region 14 Members Only
    DISTribution: Region 16
    DISTribution: Region 16 RC/NCs & invited guests only.
    DISTribution: World
    DISTribution: World-Wide
    DISTribution: Worldwide
    DISTribution: Worldwide + Telegram
    DISTribution: Z1 Backbone
    DISTribution: Z1,Z2,Z3,Z4-BACKBONE
    DISTribution: {N/A}
    DISTribution: {None on Record}

    Most of them could/should be:

    DISTribution: Fidonet

    And if you have "None", why is that area in the Echolist!? ;-)


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Saturday, January 08, 2022 15:28:24

    On 2022 Jan 08 18:56:26, you wrote to Vincent Coen:

    And if you have "None", why is that area in the Echolist!? ;-)

    the echolist is not a list of active areas in fidonet... it is a list of echotags that may be available to be linked to in any FTN... if an echotag says its disctibution is "none" then it sounds like it is, quite simply, not distributed... there's nothing wrong with that...

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... We can't control the wind, but we can adjust our sails.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to mark lewis on Saturday, January 08, 2022 21:36:40
    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-08 15:28:24, you wrote to me:

    And if you have "None", why is that area in the Echolist!? ;-)

    the echolist is not a list of active areas in fidonet... it is a list of echotags that may be available to be linked to in any FTN... if an echotag says its disctibution is "none" then it sounds like it is, quite simply, not distributed... there's nothing wrong with that...

    An echomail area that is not distributed is a local area. There's no need to tell the world about it through the elist...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Saturday, January 08, 2022 15:54:46

    On 2022 Jan 08 21:36:40, you wrote to me:

    And if you have "None", why is that area in the Echolist!? ;-)

    the echolist is not a list of active areas in fidonet... it is a list
    of echotags that may be available to be linked to in any FTN... if an
    echotag says its disctibution is "none" then it sounds like it is,
    quite simply, not distributed... there's nothing wrong with that...

    An echomail area that is not distributed is a local area. There's no need to tell the world about it through the elist...

    that's your opinion, sir... i can think of several reasons to have an echotag listed in the echolist without it being distributed... if you can't think of any reasons, perhaps you need to review the last 30+ years of exactly why the echolist existed and what it was used for?

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... Winning or losing doesn't matter until you lose...
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to mark lewis on Saturday, January 08, 2022 23:17:00
    Hello mark lewis!

    ** On Saturday 08.01.22 - 15:54, mark lewis wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    ..i can think of several reasons to have an echotag listed
    in the echolist without it being distributed... if you
    can't think of any reasons, perhaps you need to review the
    last 30+ years of exactly why the echolist existed and
    what it was used for?

    What precludes another listing with a matching echotag to be
    listed?

    Basically, the ELIST can be used as a way to broadcast the
    existence of local echos specific to one BBS?



    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (2:221/1.58)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to August Abolins on Sunday, January 09, 2022 06:10:48
    On 2022 Jan 08 23:17:00, you wrote to me:

    ..i can think of several reasons to have an echotag listed
    in the echolist without it being distributed... if you
    can't think of any reasons, perhaps you need to review the
    last 30+ years of exactly why the echolist existed and
    what it was used for?

    What precludes another listing with a matching echotag to be
    listed?

    because there can be only one entry with the same echotag...

    Basically, the ELIST can be used as a way to broadcast the
    existence of local echos specific to one BBS?

    so, let's start at the beginning, ok? from fidonews319...


    Fidonews Page 13 12 May 1986


    =================================================================
    WANTED
    =================================================================

    Thomas Kenny, 107/316

    I'm very interested in ECHOMAIL networking. I know this is a can
    of worms, since some (many?) think ECHOMAIL may (will?) ruin
    FidoNet. Well I'm open minded and think it just might work out.

    Now to finally get to the point. I've been on a few different
    FIDOs across the country and have discovered that the use of
    ECHOMAIL is much more widespread then I originally thought! I've
    seen several interesting topics being networked, but would have
    never known about them. Since there is nobody (as far as I know)
    acting as an ECHOMAIL coordinator I'd like to volunteer. I'd
    like to do two things. 1 Find out which Sysops are running
    ECHOMAIL and for what topic. 2 Create a wishlist registry. This
    way if a Sysop wants to network an ECHOMAIL topic or generate
    interest in a new ECHOMAIL topic there will be a clearing house
    for such an activity!

    I ask everybody that is reading this to please send me FidoNet
    mail if you:

    1 Are a sysop running ECHOMAIL (what topic & routing),

    2 know of a system running ECHOMAIL (what net/node & topic),

    3 wish there was somebody else that shared a common interest
    (what topic).

    Thank you very much, Thomas Kenny, Metatek FIDO, 107/316.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------



    and this article by mike fuchs from fidonews533...


    FidoNews 5-33 Page 7 15 Aug 1988


    Mike Fuchs
    1:1/201

    EchoList - The EchoMail Conference List
    (It's bAAAAaaaack...)

    Ever wonder what all those EchoMail conferences are about?
    Ever wonder if there was already a conference on some
    specific topic? Well that's why the EchoList was originally
    created. And that's why I've resurrected it.

    For those of you who might not be familiar with it, a little
    history...

    The EchoList is an informal listing of EchoMail conferences,
    as described by each conference's moderator. It is now a
    monthly publication which attempts to document certain
    interesting information about EchoMail Conferences;
    "interesting" to people who would like to participate,
    interesting to EchoMail Coordinators and those who route the
    conference traffic, and potentially interesting to the
    Conference Moderator. The base product of the EchoList
    database is the detailed Conference listing. But, as needs
    are identified which can be satisfied with the available
    information, additional reports and analyses can be
    developed.

    The EchoList was originated by Thomas Kenny, who maintained
    it as a text file completely manually. It was a time
    consuming effort, and was updated on a very sporadic and
    infrequent basis. The last edition published this way was
    December 1987.

    Several people (myself included) were working with Thomas on
    developing ways to automate the maintenance, and provide a
    structured database that could be used for things other than
    a simple conference listing. As a result, he assembled a
    specification for submitting messages that would be used for
    updating the list. Unfortunately, Thomas decided to drop
    out of FidoNet before any of the code was completed. He
    continues to have my gratitude for all he put in to getting
    the EchoList as far as he did.

    Since I was interested (for purely personal desire) in
    having an EchoList, I picked-up that last 1987 EchoList,
    built an R:base database and application, and keyed the
    whole thing in. The result is a semi-automated update
    application, and some nice report generation facilities.
    There's a lot more to be done. It's still a VERY labor-
    intensive task. But, I'm happy to say I've been able to
    publish all updates received for the last 3 months on-time.
    Now, I'm going to try and ruin that by inviting more
    updates...

    HISTORY LESSON OVER...
    That's why I wrote this article. It has been pointed out to

    FidoNews 5-33 Page 8 15 Aug 1988


    me that there are a lot of people who don't realize the
    EchoList is available. Most importantly, there are a lot of
    Conference Moderators who don't know, and as a result their
    conferences aren't in, or will soon be dropped from, that
    list.

    You see, one of things that seems to be widely agreed upon
    is that, in order to be really useful, an EchoList needs
    some control criteria. Hating bureaucracy as I do, I've
    only implemented two (at this point). First, in order to be
    listed, a conference must have a responsible party to whom
    questions can be directed; that person is the Moderator.
    Second, since reference information is only valuable if it's
    up-to-date, an EchoList conference entry must be updated via
    message to me on a regular basis.

    So there's the reason for the article. A number of
    conferences have already been dropped because they had no
    moderator identified. (How anybody's supposed to join a
    conference when there's no one identified to contact, I'll
    never know, but so be it.) The other thing is that most of
    the entries' last-update dates are VERY old. Starting with
    this next EchoList, I will start enforcing a purge criteria.
    An awful lot of conferences will be dropped as a result.
    Many are dead wood anyway. But there are many such
    conferences I know are alive and well, and I hope this
    article gets the message to those moderators. If you
    frequent a conference important to you, how about letting
    the moderator know about the EchoList?

    Oh yeah, I lied. There is one more control, but it is for
    the Moderators themselves. A Moderator can submit an entry
    that becomes password protected. From then-on, the
    moderator has some feeling of control over the information
    listed in the EchoList for their conference.

    [...]


    i'll stop there for now as these two articles provide the basics and they are also easily found so one can read them for themselves... how did i find these articles? i used grep and searched my fidonews archives for "echolist" and then for "thomas kenny" to find the original article(s) and motivations...

    here is a list of all fidonews editions up to Vol 9 Num 52 that contain the above mentioned search terms...

    grep -EiH -e "(thomas kenny|echolist)" fido???.nws | cut -d":" -f1 | sort -u

    fido319.nws
    fido339.nws
    fido407.nws
    fido410.nws
    fido422.nws
    fido423.nws
    fido425.nws
    fido426.nws
    fido429.nws
    fido432.nws
    fido433.nws
    fido439.nws
    fido446.nws
    fido447.nws
    fido507.nws
    fido508.nws
    fido514.nws
    fido533.nws
    fido534.nws
    fido541.nws
    fido626.nws
    fido739.nws
    fido741.nws
    fido817.nws
    fido823.nws
    fido826.nws
    fido829.nws
    fido837.nws
    fido903.nws
    fido904.nws
    fido911.nws
    fido912.nws
    fido930.nws
    fido931.nws
    fido942.nws
    fido950.nws
    fido952.nws

    i stopped there for a couple of reasons... one was just because... another was at some point, every issue contains "echolist" in it... these above are the most important, though, when it comes to the history of the echolist... there are a few more, as well, but these are the best place to start...

    fido410 speaks of the format of the echolist... it even mentions one reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed... somewhere around here i have other documents that speak of maintaining echolist entries of echotags for the purposes of showing ownership and maintaining that ownership... i'm just the messenger so please don't anyone start on me about that... it is what it is... the support areas for WORDSTAR, WORDPERFECT, NOVELL, and others come to mind...

    in any case, there's a bit of reading on the origins and use(s) of the echolist for everyone to enjoy for a little bit...

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... Five word horror story: Three Billion Devices Run Java
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to mark lewis on Sunday, January 09, 2022 13:56:56
    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-08 15:54:46, you wrote to me:

    An echomail area that is not distributed is a local area. There's no
    need to tell the world about it through the elist...

    that's your opinion, sir... i can think of several reasons to have an echotag listed in the echolist without it being distributed... if you can't
    think of any reasons, perhaps you need to review the last 30+ years of exactly why the echolist existed and what it was used for?

    You mean the practice of listing non existent areas with provocative descriptions just to anoy others?

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to mark lewis on Sunday, January 09, 2022 14:04:53
    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-09 06:10:48, you wrote to August Abolins:

    fido410 speaks of the format of the echolist... it even mentions one reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed...

    If you mean "Volume 4, Number 10 9 March 1987", I don't see it. Maybe you are mistaken about the exact number?

    somewhere around here i have other documents that speak of maintaining echolist entries of echotags for the purposes of showing ownership and maintaining that ownership... i'm just the messenger so please don't anyone start on me about that... it is what it is... the support areas
    for WORDSTAR, WORDPERFECT, NOVELL, and others come to mind...

    These areas are not in the current ELIST, for a good reaseon: because they are no longer active. There is no need to list those areas for ever with "Distribution: None". If anyone is interested in that historic information they can find out by looking at old elists...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, January 09, 2022 08:50:20

    On 2022 Jan 09 13:56:56, you wrote to me:

    An echomail area that is not distributed is a local area. There's no
    need to tell the world about it through the elist...

    that's your opinion, sir... i can think of several reasons to have an
    echotag listed in the echolist without it being distributed... if you
    can't think of any reasons, perhaps you need to review the last 30+
    years of exactly why the echolist existed and what it was used for?

    You mean the practice of listing non existent areas with provocative descriptions just to anoy others?

    certainly not...

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... How do you organize an anarchists' conference?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, January 09, 2022 08:52:16

    On 2022 Jan 09 14:04:52, you wrote to me:

    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-09 06:10:48, you wrote to August Abolins:

    fido410 speaks of the format of the echolist... it even mentions one
    reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed...

    If you mean "Volume 4, Number 10 9 March 1987", I don't see it.

    you don't see what? that publication or the reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed?

    Maybe you are mistaken about the exact number?

    nope... did you not read the bottom of page 8 of that publication???

    [spoon feeding mode]

    When the "contact" is listed in parentheses it means that the
    conference is NOT currently active but the person listed is
    interested in STARTING a conference on the topic.

    [/spoon feeding mode]

    somewhere around here i have other documents that speak of
    maintaining
    echolist entries of echotags for the purposes of showing ownership and
    maintaining that ownership... i'm just the messenger so please don't
    anyone start on me about that... it is what it is... the support areas
    for WORDSTAR, WORDPERFECT, NOVELL, and others come to mind...

    These areas are not in the current ELIST, for a good reaseon: because they are no longer active. There is no need to list those areas for ever with "Distribution: None". If anyone is interested in that historic information they can find out by looking at old elists...

    you are totally glossing over their status when they did exist... do we really need to spoon feed this stuff to you?

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... A product with 'ZERO DEFECTS' doesn't ship!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to mark lewis on Sunday, January 09, 2022 17:46:27
    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-09 08:52:16, you wrote to me:

    fido410 speaks of the format of the echolist... it even mentions one
    reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed...

    If you mean "Volume 4, Number 10 9 March 1987", I don't see it.

    you don't see what? that publication or the reason why a non-distributed echotag may be listed?

    The latter...

    Maybe you are mistaken about the exact number?

    nope... did you not read the bottom of page 8 of that publication???

    When the "contact" is listed in parentheses it means that the
    conference is NOT currently active but the person listed is
    interested in STARTING a conference on the topic.

    Maybe that was a good idea in 1987, when Fidonet was totally different. But it is not current practice for the ELIST.


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, January 09, 2022 12:21:24

    On 2022 Jan 09 17:46:26, you wrote to me:

    Maybe you are mistaken about the exact number?

    nope... did you not read the bottom of page 8 of that publication???

    When the "contact" is listed in parentheses it means that the
    conference is NOT currently active but the person listed is
    interested in STARTING a conference on the topic.

    Maybe that was a good idea in 1987, when Fidonet was totally different. But
    it is not current practice for the ELIST.

    i said it was one reason for listing non-distributed echotags... i didn't say anything about it being current practise... other reasons are for ownership and archives... there are others, as well... whether you agree with them or not is another matter...

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... Guns don't kill people. Bullets do.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to mark lewis on Sunday, January 09, 2022 14:28:00
    Hello mark lewis!

    ** On Sunday 09.01.22 - 08:52, mark lewis wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    nope... did you not read the bottom of page 8 of that publication???

    [spoon feeding mode]

    When the "contact" is listed in parentheses it means that the
    conference is NOT currently active but the person listed is
    interested in STARTING a conference on the topic.

    [/spoon feeding mode]

    If that still stands today, shouldn't that rule be present in
    the current elist how-to instead of an old .nws file from the
    80s that many people wouldn't come across?

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (2:221/1.58)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to August Abolins on Sunday, January 09, 2022 15:39:26

    On 2022 Jan 09 14:28:00, you wrote to me:

    nope... did you not read the bottom of page 8 of that publication???

    [spoon feeding mode]

    When the "contact" is listed in parentheses it means that the
    conference is NOT currently active but the person listed is
    interested in STARTING a conference on the topic.

    [/spoon feeding mode]

    If that still stands today, shouldn't that rule be present in
    the current elist how-to instead of an old .nws file from the
    80s that many people wouldn't come across?

    i'm guessing you have, by now, read my post to wilfred explaining that it was provided as a valid example of listing non-distributed echotags in the echolist ;)

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... Why does round pizza come in a square box?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to mark lewis on Sunday, January 09, 2022 19:22:08
    Hi mark,

    On 2022-01-09 12:21:24, you wrote to me:

    Maybe that was a good idea in 1987, when Fidonet was totally
    different. But it is not current practice for the ELIST.

    i said it was one reason for listing non-distributed echotags... i didn't say anything about it being current practise... other reasons are for ownership and archives...

    Ownership of a dead area? What's the point?

    The (current) ELIST is not for archiving. It's for listing active areas IMHO...

    there are others, as well...

    Well please mention them. I don't see it...

    whether you agree with them or not is another matter...

    ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, January 09, 2022 16:31:08
    On 2022 Jan 09 19:22:08, you wrote to me:

    Maybe that was a good idea in 1987, when Fidonet was totally
    different. But it is not current practice for the ELIST.

    i said it was one reason for listing non-distributed echotags... i
    didn't say anything about it being current practise... other reasons
    are for ownership and archives...

    Ownership of a dead area? What's the point?

    one point would be to maintain the ownership of the tag...

    The (current) ELIST is not for archiving. It's for listing active
    areas IMHO...

    noted even though it is a wrong thought...

    there are others, as well...

    Well please mention them. I don't see it...

    i've mentioned several... are you missing mail?

    whether you agree with them or not is another matter...

    ;)

    :)

    )\/(ark

    "The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
    ... We don't like sissies in this neck of the woods.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)