Hi All,

This is more of a BBS network background question than a "how-to". I don't have plans to start a message network or hub right now but, I am curious as
to how all of that ties together.

Do people just set up their BBS as a hub by entering a new Hub and node
address in their Echomail networks section and then setting up their Hub settings with the same details?

How do people pick different zone/net/hub addresses without conflicting with other existing nets? IE Fido has 1-4, fsx has 21, etc?

Does it require different software or just a normal BBS like Mystic?

Why am I asking so many questions and where did my pants go?

-Lord Gareth

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

Re: Question About FTN Hubs
By: Lord Gareth to All on Thu Jun 04 2020 07:20 pm

Do people just set up their BBS as a hub by entering a new Hub and node address in their Echomail networks section and then setting up their Hub settings with the same details?

It depends on the BBS software you use. Some do well at it, some dont.

At the end of the day, a FTN network needs a mailer (which you have - to send "stuff" to another system) and a tosser (which you have - to package up stuff for other systems). The "BBS Software" is really only there to consume or create "the stuff" - but you dont need to have it. As an example Hub 3 is no BBS - I'm just using BINKD (mailer) and HPT (tosser).

How do people pick different zone/net/hub addresses without conflicting with other existing nets? IE Fido has 1-4, fsx has 21, etc?

Well, you could use any address you like - it will only be a problem if you intend to have downstream nodes that may already use that zone number with somebody else. So some will tell you to pick an (apparent) unused one, and I'm sure somebody will post the link to the document where the known ones are listed.

(As an example, I use Zone 10 to shuffle stuff between my BBSes that I play with - and I know there is another network also using Zone 10. But since I doubt anybody else will connect to my network (and that one), its ok.)

Does it require different software or just a normal BBS like Mystic?

Mystic doesnt have a good track record of being a hub (but I am tainted) - some will tell you it works fine, and it does, many of the FSX hubs are Mystic.

(The reality is a lot of this software is old and not maintained well, so anything you use may expose some sort of problem - especially when its used differently to how the author intended.)

Why am I asking so many questions and where did my pants go?

Who's wearing pants these days - since we work from home and Zoom only sees your top half, it doesnt matter :)

...δεσ∩

... The deceased should be preserved by electroplating them.
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Thanks for the reply alterego. I appreciate it. I want to start developing
an understanding how all these interconnected systems work. One of the
biggest problems today is that people don't even think about how the internet works, how computers work, how cell phones work, etc. " So long as they work and SOMEONE understands them and can fix them, why should I care?"

I'm still very green in the BBS world. But I know that the more I can learn, the better I can serve that community in the future.

I can already tell that QWK is a whole nother ball game so, I'll leave that
for another post.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

On 06-04-20 19:20, Lord Gareth wrote to All <=-

Hi All,

This is more of a BBS network background question than a "how-to". I don't have plans to start a message network or hub right now but, I am curious as to how all of that ties together.

I run VKRadio, which is a network based around hobbyist radio communication - If you can use it to communicate using electromagnetic radiation, it's probably on topic. :) That's as opposed to being entertainment. The core of the network is FTN, though I do have a QWK and NNTP gateway for those who want to use those protocols to feed their systems, instead of FTN. The bulk (90-95% I'd estimate) of nodes use FTN.

Do people just set up their BBS as a hub by entering a new Hub and node address in their Echomail networks section and then setting up their
Hub settings with the same details?

I just setup the new address as an additional address in my Mystic configuration. I didn't need to specify a hub (that's what I am), but I have added downlinks as needed, starting with this system that was my first downlink. And as I wanted to be fully FTN compliant, I also maintain a nodelist, which is hatched to other FTN nodes in the net every week.

How do people pick different zone/net/hub addresses without conflicting with other existing nets? IE Fido has 1-4, fsx has 21, etc?

The main one is the zone. NuSkooler's Google doc with the list of known FTNs is a really good first place to start. It's probably the best list of FTNs out there. I don't have a link on hand, but someone will.

Anyway, I chose Zone 432, because 432.100 is the 70cm SSB calling frequency around the world on ham radio, and that zone was unused, from all sources I had access to at the time. I have since claimed it. :)

As it turns out, the next few zone numbers are also rather relevant - 433 and 434 would correspond to 433 and 434 MHz, which are common frequencies for unlicenced devices, which some experimentors use - I'm building a project that uses a data link in this band). 435 MHz is the start of the amateur satellite band. But I very much doubt I'll be going multi zone here. I think z432 will remain more than big enough for my needs. :)

Does it require different software or just a normal BBS like Mystic?

I use Mystic, but you just need a mailer and a tosser as a minimum, plus other relevane software (e.g. TIC processor for hatching and distributing files, such as the nodelist). A BBS is not strictly needed (Mine really isn't), unless you're going to offer user access to content located on the hub.

Why am I asking so many questions and where did my pants go?

Don't look at me! :D


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So the node list is manually updated every week?

Also, how does the hub/node relationship work overall? When you start a new network/hub do you set your settings up as a Node instead of as an echomail
net in Mystic's settings? Also, how do you go about assigning nodes? Is it just a matter of assigning an open number between 001-999 as the node address to the individual requesting access and then adding them to the node list for the next refresh?

I think that makes sense.
So to start a net, you need to find an open network address (IE 21 for fsx), you then pick your hub address, usually 1 for the first hub, and then a node considered to be the base node, usually 100 from what I see. You set that up as the node settings and as the echomail net because, well, you are the node and the net. When someone wants to join your net, you assign them a node number which will connect back to you and allow you to communicate back out
to them and other members of the net. You add that new person to your node list.

But, I don't know how the TIC/Areafix/Filefix stuff comes into play. How do you set up those pieces for the new node owner? What does it authenticate against on your BinkP server?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

Also, I've heard a bit about HAM radio but haven't taken the time to dive in too deeply. So, when you said SSB I knew it meant "Single Side Band". However, I have absolutely no idea what that means...LOL

I know there are different types of antennas, that there are
internet-connected networks like echolink and dstar, and that if you have the right license, frequency, and luck, you can talk to the ISS.

Most of what I know is just because I listen to the No Agenda podcast. Adam Curry is a HAM operator and used to talk a LOT about it. It was pretty neat hearing all the terminology, even if I didn't fully understand it all.

http://adam.curry.com/html/K5ACC-ttbfd7hlfMf5900VSvk45V1BlDCWBl.html

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

On 05 Jun 2020 at 10:15a, alterego pondered and said...

(The reality is a lot of this software is old and not maintained well, so anything you use may expose some sort of problem - especially when its used differently to how the author intended.)

You cover all of this info really well :)

Who's wearing pants these days - since we work from home and Zoom only sees your top half, it doesnt matter :)

Happy thoughts ... la la la.... :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/28 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 06-04-20 23:24, Lord Gareth wrote to Vk3jed <=-

So the node list is manually updated every week?

Entries are made manually, but I have a set of automated scripts that process and distribute the nodelist every week. All I have to do is add, delete or modify entries in the master file as needed, and the automation does the rest. :)

Also, how does the hub/node relationship work overall? When you start
a new network/hub do you set your settings up as a Node instead of as
an echomail net in Mystic's settings? Also, how do you go about

This question confuses me, I'm not sure what you mean. FTN is really peer - peer, it's just a matter of who polls who, at a link level.

assigning nodes? Is it just a matter of assigning an open number
between 001-999 as the node address to the individual requesting access and then adding them to the node list for the next refresh?

Pretty much. :)

I think that makes sense.
So to start a net, you need to find an open network address (IE 21 for fsx), you then pick your hub address, usually 1 for the first hub, and then a node considered to be the base node, usually 100 from what I

Pretty much, though for one net, I picked 8 as the first net, because it fitted the overall theme of the net. You don't have to start with Net 1.

see. You set that up as the node settings and as the echomail net because, well, you are the node and the net. When someone wants to
join your net, you assign them a node number which will connect back to you and allow you to communicate back out to them and other members of
the net. You add that new person to your node list.

When you add a node, you have to:

1. assign a node number and add it to the nodelist.
2. Assign passwords (having an application form allows the prospective node to choose those).
3. Configure the node in your tosser and mailer (in Mystic, in Echomail
odes).

At this point, it should be possible to poll, and then the node can use Areafix and Filefix to connect their chosen message and file echos.

But, I don't know how the TIC/Areafix/Filefix stuff comes into play.
How do you set up those pieces for the new node owner? What does it authenticate against on your BinkP server?

Authentication against binkp is done using the session password.

Areafix allows the other node to tuen on and off message areas.
Filefix does the same for files.

Allfix (or "Fix" in Mystic") just means that the Areafix and Filefix passwords are configured as one (and are the same).

TIC is the mechanism that is used for the file echos. a TIC file describes the file to be distributed and the echo in which it is being distributed in. It also contains a number of technical details and some directives.


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On 06-04-20 23:30, Lord Gareth wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Also, I've heard a bit about HAM radio but haven't taken the time to
dive in too deeply. So, when you said SSB I knew it meant "Single Side Band". However, I have absolutely no idea what that means...LOL

LOL, there should be plenty of introductory material online to help with that part of the theory.

I know there are different types of antennas, that there are internet-connected networks like echolink and dstar, and that if you
have the right license, frequency, and luck, you can talk to the ISS.

Yep. :)

Most of what I know is just because I listen to the No Agenda podcast. Adam Curry is a HAM operator and used to talk a LOT about it. It was pretty neat hearing all the terminology, even if I didn't fully
understand it all.

http://adam.curry.com/html/K5ACC-ttbfd7hlfMf5900VSvk45V1BlDCWBl.html

I probably won't get to hear that, I have very little time to listen to podcasts. :(


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On 04 Jun 2020, Lord Gareth said the following...

So to start a net, you need to find an open network address (IE 21 for fsx), you then pick your hub address, usually 1 for the first hub, and then a node considered to be the base node, usually 100 from what I see. You set that up as the node settings and as the echomail net because, well, you are the node and the net. When someone wants to join your
net, you assign them a node number which will connect back to you and allow you to communicate back out to them and other members of the net. You add that new person to your node list.

That's the gist of it. In getting Telegard set up I created a "testnet" between Mystic and TG just so I could make sure I got things working without flooding the real networks with 40,000 test messages. In Mystic I added a
new address (72:1/1) and a new node to connect to (72:1/2).

When you set up the new node in Mystic (which Avon's videos explain so well), you add their address as well as a binkp password (on page 4) and and FIX password on page 3.

Now that the node is setup (be sure to restart mis after making changes), your new node is ready to connect to you.

On their side they would add a new address (the new node address you created) and a new node with your address and binkp hostname & password.

The new node can now create a netmail base and send messages to your address addressed to Areafix or Filefix and the putting the FIX password you entered
on page 3 in the subject line.

From there it's just a matter of creating message bases on both sides with
the new addresses and making sure they're set to export to each other.

It was actually a really informative exercise. If you have some time, spin
up another copy of mystic and give it a try.

Jay

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (21:3/110)

It's OK if you don't listen to the podcast. If you visit that link you can
see the node/link Adam has set up and some links to cool HAM related devices.

:)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the additional detail!

-Chris`

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

On 04 Jun 2020 at 11:30p, Lord Gareth pondered and said...

Also, I've heard a bit about HAM radio but haven't taken the time to
dive in too deeply. So, when you said SSB I knew it meant "Single Side Band". However, I have absolutely no idea what that means...LOL

Radio is transmitted via radio waves. All waves, regardless of
whether they're radio, sound, seismic, oceanic, etc, have the
same basic shape: the sine wave. But to usually convey information,
we have the _modulate_ a wave: that is, we have to manipulate it
some way so as to encode the information we want to transmit. On
the receiving end, we _demodulate_ it to recover the transmitted
information.

There are only a few basic ways you can manipulate a wave to
effectively modulate it for the purposes of moving information
around: you can turn it off and on (this is the basis of Morse
code, which is just a wave at a single frequency, what we call
a carrier wave, that's transmitted off-and-on in a specific
pattern that let's us encode letters, numbers, and a few
punctuation and control signals). But you can also vary the
amplitude (basically, height) of the wave, it's frequency, and
it's phase. There are useful information modulating "modes"
based on all of these techniques and their combinations: most
people are already familiar with AM (Amplitude Modulation) and
FM (Frequency Modulation) in which we transmit audio information
by using the base audio frequencies (which are pretty low, like,
a couple of thousand cycles per second, or a couple of kilohertz)
to modulate the much high-frequency radio carrier wave we
actually transmit: in AM, we use the audio frequencies to guide
the amplitude of the transmitted carrier; in FM, we vary the
radio carrier frequency in a way that corresponds to the audio
base-band frequencies.

When we modulate a wave to transfer information, doing so requires
a certain amount of "bandwidth", or part of the radio spectrum, to
hold the transmitted signal. The spectrum of frequencies is large,
but not infinite; thus, we'd like to compress the amount of bandwidth
we use if possible.

An interesting property of AM is that the upper and lower halves
(or sidebands) of a wave are mirror images of each other: this
means that we really only need to transfer one sideband; we can
reconstruct the other on the receiving side. Furthermore, if
we know the carrier frequency, we can filter that out of the
transmission too, thus saving a little bit of bandwidth.

And so that's what SSB is: the transmission of an amplitude-modulated
radio signal conveying audio base-band information by suppressing one
of the AM sidebands and possibly the carrier: this uses only half
of the bandwidth of the corresponding AM transmission, which is
much more efficient use of the available spectrum.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/28 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 04 Jun 2020, Lord Gareth said the following...

Thanks for the reply alterego. I appreciate it. I want to start developing an understanding how all these interconnected systems work. One of the biggest problems today is that people don't even think about how the internet works, how computers work, how cell phones work, etc. " So long as they work and SOMEONE understands them and can fix them, why should I care?"

This resonates with me. One of the reasons I love retro computing is because older computers were simpler and therefore easier to fully grasp. Modern computers and networks are becoming increasingly complex, to the point you simply cannot understand every part of it.

Computer users used to be almost always tech savvy and have a fairly good understanding of what was happening under the hood. They were also more creative, as opposed to the consuming centric culture of today. In a way this change allowed much more users, but it also changed the landscape.

The relatively simple architecture of the BBS scene is quite refreshing to me and a way to return to that point in time where I could more easily track
what was going on. However, since I was only a BBS user in the 90s and never got the chance to become a sysop, I'm also still putting all the pieces together. Since there's not a huge amount of tutorial style documentation, especially concerning FTN networks, I'm finding myself asking the same questions as you and learning a little bit more each day.

---
Vasco aka Gluon

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Geek Sphere BBS (21:1/151)

On 06-05-20 08:16, Lord Gareth wrote to Vk3jed <=-

It's OK if you don't listen to the podcast. If you visit that link you can see the node/link Adam has set up and some links to cool HAM
related devices.

Now I have to find the link again. :) I have a rather complex and growing remote base system here myself. I'm in the middle of making a major addition to it. :)


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On 06-05-20 08:54, Warpslide wrote to Lord Gareth <=-

It was actually a really informative exercise. If you have some time, spin up another copy of mystic and give it a try.

Yeah setting up a private test network is a great way to learn about FTN. :)


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On 06-06-20 14:18, tenser wrote to Lord Gareth <=-

And so that's what SSB is: the transmission of an amplitude-modulated radio signal conveying audio base-band information by suppressing one
of the AM sidebands and possibly the carrier: this uses only half
of the bandwidth of the corresponding AM transmission, which is
much more efficient use of the available spectrum.

Pretty well written, great job, given the limitations of a text only medium. Diagrams help to clarify these concepts, but tricky in text. :)


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On 06-06-20 11:57, Gluon wrote to Lord Gareth <=-

This resonates with me. One of the reasons I love retro computing is because older computers were simpler and therefore easier to fully
grasp. Modern computers and networks are becoming increasingly complex,
to the point you simply cannot understand every part of it.

Yeah it's pretty simple tech, compared to a lot of what's around today. Fun to play with. ;)

Computer users used to be almost always tech savvy and have a fairly
good understanding of what was happening under the hood. They were also more creative, as opposed to the consuming centric culture of today. In
a way this change allowed much more users, but it also changed the landscape.

It once required a degree of tech skill to use and manage a computer.

The relatively simple architecture of the BBS scene is quite refreshing
to me and a way to return to that point in time where I could more
easily track what was going on. However, since I was only a BBS user in the 90s and never got the chance to become a sysop, I'm also still
putting all the pieces together. Since there's not a huge amount of tutorial style documentation, especially concerning FTN networks, I'm finding myself asking the same questions as you and learning a little
bit more each day.

It's a LOT easier today then it was back in the 90s, when you had to get several pieces of software working together. I think it took me 2 weeks or so to get Fidonet fully working on my original RA system in 1992. :)


... BROOK'S LAW: Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.
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On 06 Jun 2020 at 09:16p, Vk3jed pondered and said...

Pretty well written, great job, given the limitations of a text only medium. Diagrams help to clarify these concepts, but tricky in text. :)

Thanks!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/28 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Thank you for the explanation! My eyes glazed over a bit but, I think I understand it. :D

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)

On 06 Jun 2020, tenser said the following...

An interesting property of AM is that the upper and lower halves
(or sidebands) of a wave are mirror images of each other: this
means that we really only need to transfer one sideband; we can reconstruct the other on the receiving side.

This was really interesting. I've never gotten into HAM radio, I do remember
my uncle had a CB radio in his car when I was a kid.

Probably unrelated, but I just fell down a wikipedia rabbit hole wondering
why you almost never see stereo AM radio stations. TIL that they can and do exist, but politics & in-fighting along with a lack of fidelity make AM more suited to the spoken word, negating the need for stereo.


Jay

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (21:3/110)

On 06-07-20 00:49, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

On 06 Jun 2020 at 09:16p, Vk3jed pondered and said...

Pretty well written, great job, given the limitations of a text only medium. Diagrams help to clarify these concepts, but tricky in text. :)

Thanks!

You're welcome! :)


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I had a CB radio when I was younger. Interestingly enough there is a guy who goes by the handle of Sandman that I used to pick up on my CB when I was younger and now somehow that SAME GUY comes across headphones when using a non-usb/standard headphone connection. I think he must live nearby and probably has a high-powered rig.

-Lord Gareth

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/17 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Mirrored Lands BBS (21:4/174)