• EVs

    From Avon@21:1/101 to All on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 17:13:20
    So I'm looking at getting an EV and have been learning a lot about them, batteries etc. Wondering if anyone here is driving one? Has any experience with them?

    Thanks :)

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  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Avon on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 11:34:00
    Am 11.10.23 schrieb Avon@21:1/101 in FSX_GEN:

    Hallo Avon,

    So I'm looking at getting an EV and have been learning a lot about them, batteries etc. Wondering if anyone here is driving one? Has any experience with them?

    I just bought a pre-owned Renault Zoe and will get it on Friday :)
    I chose it because it's not that expensive (I got it for 20 kEUR
    including battery, it's 3 years old and has 37.000 km) as others and
    it still is a small car (less than 2m wide, including mirrors) - most
    other (new) cars are f*cking SUVs and other fat cars which are uuuugly
    as hell.

    I will use it mainly for driving to work and in the nearby area, we
    also have a Toyota Yaris hybrid for longer distances.

    So I don't really have experience yet, but I hope to have it soon :)

    Regards
    Anna

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Friday, October 13, 2023 14:03:00
    Avon wrote to All <=-

    So I'm looking at getting an EV and have been learning a lot about
    them, batteries etc. Wondering if anyone here is driving one? Has any experience with them?

    I just bought a used 2018 BMW i3 with range extender, 14K miles. They're
    great little "city" cars perfectly capable of the occasional trip. It's
    small, but we have a SUV for snow and long/family trips. I work from
    home, so most of my driving lately is picking up kids from school,
    errands, weekend jaunts with my wife and the occasional 60 mile round
    trip to-from an office.

    The range extender is a nice way of easing into electric without knowing
    about the state of charge. I think my next car will be full electric,
    based on how ranges are increasing.

    Some of these insights are probably USA-only.

    1. Battery life over time seems better than I'd heard based on owners of 2013-2014 experiences.

    2. Mine has a range of approximately 120 miles, with a 80 mile "range extender". It's a 650cc scooter engine that acts as a generator to
    charge the battery. It doesn't power the car directly. Theoretically,
    you could drive till the battery is depleted, then keep going on the
    range extender by filling the 1.9 gallon tank every 80 miles until you
    find a charging station.

    'range anxiety' is a thing. With my Prius, I could go 450 miles on a
    tank and fill up anywhere. You don't realize how many gas stations there
    are in the US until you don't need to stop at them. :)

    3. There are several competing DC charger networks out there, I'm trying
    them all. I do most of my charging at home, though. Electrify America is
    big, but their chargers are not always 100% functional. Apparently EA is
    one of Volkswagen of America's penances for Dieselgate and they were
    ordered to pay to set up an EV network - but not so much to maintain it.

    4. I did a kitchen remodel 3 years ago and had my floors pulled up.
    While they were doing that, I had them run an electrical line from my
    breaker box to my car port. Unfortunately, they pulled 10 gauge wire,
    not 8 gauge. With 10 gauge wire, I can support a 20 amp circuit, but a 40
    amp circuit would have required 8. You're only supposed to run 75% of
    the rated capacity, so my car charges at 16 amps instead of 32.

    I'm assuming NZ is 220/240v, so you're halfway there to charging. A
    220/240 20 amp circuit isn't as rare as it is here, where we run 110.

    I mostly charge overnight, it takes around 6 or 7 hours, so not a big
    deal.

    5. I got a EV utility plan at home - my price per kwh is roughly half of
    peak pricing between 12am and 3pm. Definitly worth looking into if you
    get an EV. I had to provide a VIN to apply for the plan.

    6. Maintenance is less frequent, as there are much fewer moving parts. I
    walked through an auto parts store and was amazed at how many fluids and
    spare parts were for sale to keep cars running.

    By way of comparison, I have a simple maintenance schedule - a yearly oil change for the range extender, replace the brake fluid and plugs once
    every 2 years.

    i3s have an oddball tire size, and there's only one manufacturer of
    them. They're around 225 a tire here.

    7. Idiots in diesel trucks love to get in front and "roll coal" -
    flooring it so you get swamped in diesel smoke. Idiots. They like to
    park their trucks to block public chargers, too.

    8. There are a ton of apps that let you find charging stations and
    compare costs. My car has an app that lets you send info to the in-car
    nav, and it has the ability to look up charging stations.

    9. EV drivers are a friendly lot. I end up striking up a conversation
    with other EV owners when I charge at a public charger. Tesla drivers
    are the exception - they usually use their own network, and sit in their
    cars while charging.

    10. BMW i3s are "hackable", with an app called Bimmercode and a
    Bluetooth OBD sensor, you can change all sorts of defaults with the
    displays, the car's behavior and the lighting. I used it to fold down
    my mirrors when I park and to control when the range extender kicks in
    and add the "sport mode" option from the S model.

    11. The speakers in the base audio system are rubbish. I replaced them
    with a BMW-specific 4" 2-way speaker in around 30 minutes and the sound
    is much better.

    12. They accelerate QUICKLY. After years of feather-footing it when
    merging onto freeways, I can boot it and pass cars on the freeway before
    fully merging. There's no gearbox and no torque curve with an electric
    motor. It's all there, all the time.





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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Avon on Sunday, October 15, 2023 00:21:45
    So I'm looking at getting an EV and have been learning a lot about them, batteries etc. Wondering if anyone here is driving one? Has any
    experience with them?

    I have a 2018 Fiat 500E - a compliance car that was only sold in California and Oregon for a few years. Stellantis lost like $15k on each one of these sold, it's actually a fantastic little commuter.

    The downside to me is that I don't get a ton of range with this vehicle, but it made me a believer in the technology. If you can swing getting solar on your home, it even sweetens the deal.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Sunday, October 15, 2023 08:31:00
    esc wrote to Avon <=-

    I have a 2018 Fiat 500E - a compliance car that was only sold in California and Oregon for a few years. Stellantis lost like $15k on
    each one of these sold, it's actually a fantastic little commuter.

    The downside to me is that I don't get a ton of range with this
    vehicle, but it made me a believer in the technology. If you can swing getting solar on your home, it even sweetens the deal.

    When they can make solar efficient enough to contribute to range, we'll
    be in a good place. Toyota made a "solar roof" for the Prius, but all it
    did was power the interior fans.

    With the price of gas nowadays, I'm doing back-of-the-envelope
    calculations to compare EV charging costs to gasoline and EV is coming
    out better.

    I have a round-trip from Santa Cruz to Truckee, CA I need to make, and
    want to do it in my EV as an experiment. The uphill portion will kill my efficiency, but there are a bunch of charging stations in Sacramento and Auburn. Taking my spare car, an SUV that gets around 19 mpg should cost
    around $170 in gas - it's a 500 mile round trip.

    I'm getting around 4 miles per kwh, so if it were flat, using a mixture
    of DC charging and home level 2 charging, it should cost around 60
    bucks.

    I've got a range extender, so I could always use that, too.



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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, October 15, 2023 10:11:55
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Avon <=-

    7. Idiots in diesel trucks love to get in front and "roll coal" -
    flooring it so you get swamped in diesel smoke. Idiots. They like to
    park their trucks to block public chargers, too.

    That is not really an EV thing, though. On my recent trip out west, it happened more frequently the farther west I went (i.e. more so than here in Kentucky). I don't drive an EV. I think they do it to non-trucks or maybe non-diesels.

    Southern California is where I noticed it most. Here, they only seem to do
    it if you are driving or accelerating slower than they'd like. There they
    just seemed to do it regardless.

    I have never heard it called "roll coal," though.

    The part about chargers could be true and I wouldn't notice. Honestly, I'd
    not be shocked if some drivers don't realize what they are parking in front
    of.


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 16, 2023 05:32:00
    When they can make solar efficient enough to contribute to range, we'll
    be in a good place. Toyota made a "solar roof" for the Prius, but all it did was power the interior fans.

    Chuckle, you want a BP solar challenge vehicle. :) Most were based on
    bicycle level tech, near 100% covered in panels, and took part in a race
    across the Nullabor plain here. Only no good for passengers or cargo :)

    With the price of gas nowadays, I'm doing back-of-the-envelope

    You must have far better pricing than we do. We're around $2/L, roughly a quart. That's mostly become our baseline and it heads up towards $2.30 from there.

    efficiency, but there are a bunch of charging stations in Sacramento and

    You also must have far more charging stations than us too. There was a group of Journos here that made a trip from Melbourne to Sydney, ~900Km with a
    detour to Canberra after they got to Sydney. We have a good set of mountains in between, and they found they could only drive for 2-3hrs and then have to recharge for ~2hrs as well. A large proportion of chargers were either not compatible or wouldn't charge their vehicle at all or at a reduced charge
    rate. They ended up getting towed back into Sydney from Canberra.

    We also get some really weird charging stations. Out on said Nullabor Plain there's a much lauded charge station that runs on second hand chip oil from
    the local store. There are others that just plain run on diesel generators. Electric utopia here we come. :)

    The other one that comes to mind, and I'd have to track down the details, I think it was a Electric Jesus special tried to drive from Perth to Melbourne, that same Nullabor Plain again, its ~2000Km... they had to get themselves
    towed as well.

    Spec


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, October 15, 2023 16:41:07
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to esc on Sun Oct 15 2023 08:31 am

    When they can make solar efficient enough to contribute to range, we'll be in a good place. Toyota made a "solar roof" for the Prius, but all it did was power the interior fans.

    I just saw a video on YouTube yesterday saying Toyota has made significant progress developing a car engine that runs on ammonia and produces very little pollution. Supposedly this could be a considerable alternative to electric vehicles and hybrids:
    https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=RX1AYNI41dkC_3xf

    Nightfox
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Sunday, October 15, 2023 16:47:14
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Spectre to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Oct 16 2023 05:32 am

    You must have far better pricing than we do. We're around $2/L, roughly a quart. That's mostly become our baseline and it heads up towards $2.30 from there.

    We're around $USD 1.58/L here, and I expect it to go up. Gas prices in the USA are manipulated and volatile.

    You also must have far more charging stations than us too. There was a group of Journos here that made a trip from Melbourne to Sydney, ~900Km with a detour to Canberra after they got to Sydney. We have a good set of mountains in between, and they found they could only drive for 2-3hrs and then have to recharge for ~2hrs as well. A large proportion of chargers were either not compatible or wouldn't charge their vehicle at all or at a reduced charge rate. They ended up getting towed back into Sydney from Canberra.

    Around here, we have level 1 charging (110v, under 15 amps), Level 2 (220v, somewhere between 16 and 40 amps) and DC charging (480v). I can fully charge with a DC charger in around an hour - and worst case I have the gas range extender if needed. The apps can tell you which are in use, where they are, and their capabilities, but the number of chargers that don't work is material.

    I'm really curious to try a road trip, but not sure how adventurous my family is.
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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 16, 2023 11:58:00
    You also must have far more charging stations than us too. There was

    Around here, we have level 1 charging (110v, under 15 amps), Level 2 (220v, somewhere between 16 and 40 amps) and DC charging (480v). I can fully charge with a DC charger in around an hour - and worst case I have the gas range extender if needed. The apps can tell you which are in use,

    I don't know how many types of charger we have. I know there are "fast" and "standard". The problem the guys in the Canberra detour ran into, was the chargers were either broken, or not suitable for their vehicle.

    Spec


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Monday, October 16, 2023 06:34:00
    Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I don't know how many types of charger we have. I know there are "fast" and "standard". The problem the guys in the Canberra detour ran into,
    was the chargers were either broken, or not suitable for their vehicle.

    Chargers are a mess. There are several "standards" out there - J1172 is
    an actual standard, and most cars take that. There's a CCS plug that
    supports J1772 fast charging, then CHAdeMO, which supports some japanese brands, and Tesla has their own.

    Tesla has the biggest network in the US and is going to strong arm manufacturers into licensing their connector for cars - some
    manufacturers have already agreed to do so.


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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 16, 2023 14:40:14
    Tesla has the biggest network in the US and is going to strong arm manufacturers into licensing their connector for cars - some
    manufacturers have already agreed to do so.

    The strong-arm bit sounds bad, but the common-connector bit sounds absolutely necessary.

    Kind of like having basic standards for outlets. Imagine if you never quite knew which outlet you'd see when going to a hotel...

    I mean, I get that when I travel, but at least I'll generally have a solid idea on what the outlet will look like, without having to check something beforehand, other than country.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 16, 2023 11:28:07
    I've got a range extender, so I could always use that, too.

    What's your experience with the range extender? I've considered that but I don't know if it's just easier to find a charging station. I only use my Fiat as a commuter so I'm not super concerned at the end of the day, but it is nice to be able to sit in the carpool lane at any time with the DMV stickers.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Nightfox on Monday, October 16, 2023 11:31:55
    I just saw a video on YouTube yesterday saying Toyota has made
    significant progress developing a car engine that runs on ammonia and produces very little pollution. Supposedly this could be a considerable alternative to electric vehicles and hybrids:

    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    In other words, an EV can plug into really any power source - solar, wind, traditional electrical grid, alternative fuel, etc., and the vehicle itself is not married to a specific fuel source. Toyota, in this case, is building technology that is wholly dependent on one specific thing. Whether or not people prefer EV to combustion is IMO irrelevant - the momentum for building charging stations is far greater than an alternative fuel source's ability to convince folks to build an infrastructure around that.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 16, 2023 11:33:38
    Tesla has the biggest network in the US and is going to strong arm manufacturers into licensing their connector for cars - some
    manufacturers have already agreed to do so.

    Hopefully this happens sooner than later, and I'm not a Tesla acolyte. I just prefer standardization as a consumer...like Apple with their myriad of plugs and chargers, ugh, don't get me started - I'm glad they're being forced to adapt to a single technology there.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Monday, October 16, 2023 17:57:19
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Oct 16 2023 11:28 am

    What's your experience with the range extender? I've considered that but I

    I haven't *had* to use it, but I drove with it on for a tank-worth recently as DMV required a smog check on sale, and there wasn't enough data on the computer. It makes a little noise, barely noticeable noise. It's barely audible above the stereo at normal volumes.

    It keeps the charge most of the time, unless you're going fast or uphill.

    a commuter so I'm not super concerned at the end of the day, but it is nice to be able to sit in the carpool lane at any time with the DMV stickers.

    My car was a 2018, the stickers that came with the car expired last year. I spent a good hour or so taking mine off with lighter fluid and a plastic scraper, as my dealer threw in a ceramic protectant into the deal and I wanted a clean car before they applied it. I don't drive anywhere with carpool lanes these days, anyway.
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to esc on Monday, October 16, 2023 18:47:47
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to Nightfox on Mon Oct 16 2023 11:31 am

    I just saw a video on YouTube yesterday saying Toyota has made
    significant progress developing a car engine that runs on ammonia and
    produces very little pollution. Supposedly this could be a considerable
    alternative to electric vehicles and hybrids:

    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    In other words, an EV can plug into really any power source - solar, wind, traditional electrical grid, alternative fuel, etc., and the vehicle itself is not married to a specific fuel source.

    I see what you mean, though I think electricity can also be considered just another type of fuel that powers the vehicle. EVs have an advantage over ammonia in that there are more EV charging stations than gas stations that pump ammonia - though traditional gasoline and diesel still has the advantage over either of them, in that all fuel stations carry traditional gasoline (and many carry diesel).

    The other advantage of something like ammonia is that you don't have to wait a long time for a battery to fully charge. I think that's still an important advantage, which might not be easily solved for a while. I think it would be good to have some quick charge options to charge an EV battery to 100%, even if that means going to a station and having your EV battery swapped out for a fully charged one - though I have a feeling that quick battery swapping might not be something universally implemented.

    Also, I'd wonder that the existing gas station infrastructure could probably be more easily adapted to carry ammonia - They might just need to fill one of their tanks with ammonia instead of gasoline or diesel and use the existing pumps to pump it.

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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to esc on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 17:58:00
    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    They're pretty inefficient in that you're converting to electrickery, storing or transmitting it. You jam it into another storage medium and then you convert it back into kinetic energy.

    I don't know what, but an alternative clean high density energy source is required.

    In other words, an EV can plug into really any power source - solar, wind, traditional electrical grid, alternative fuel, etc., and the vehicle

    If we suddenly switched everyone to EV... the grid would collapse.. there's
    not enough capacity to have everyone trying to charge their thing over night. That's probably not going to change if you try to take fossil fuels out of power generation also. Then you need to find not only more power, but some alternative high level baseline power that's there all the time.

    Spec


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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Spectre on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 07:40:00
    Spectre wrote to esc <=-

    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    They're pretty inefficient in that you're converting to
    electrickery, storing or transmitting it. You jam it into
    another storage medium and then you convert it back into kinetic
    energy.

    Absolutely.

    I don't know what, but an alternative clean high density energy
    source is required.

    It's available. Nuclear. We just need to build more plants.

    In other words, an EV can plug into really any power source - solar, wind, traditional electrical grid, alternative fuel, etc., and the vehicle

    If we suddenly switched everyone to EV... the grid would
    collapse.. there's not enough capacity to have everyone trying to
    charge their thing over night. That's probably not going to
    change if you try to take fossil fuels out of power generation
    also. Then you need to find not only more power, but some
    alternative high level baseline power that's there all the time.

    Agreed, and again, it's nuclear. It's the only answer that makes sense.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 08:41:00
    Nightfox wrote to esc <=-

    Also, I'd wonder that the existing gas station infrastructure could probably be more easily adapted to carry ammonia - They might just need
    to fill one of their tanks with ammonia instead of gasoline or diesel
    and use the existing pumps to pump it.


    The smart coffee shop will set up fast DC chargers outside their shops, so people can come in and buy a coffee/pastry/hang out while their car
    charges. Imagine if you could charge your car at any Starbucks?

    I usually charge at home, but am keeping an eye out for chargers near
    shopping areas, coffee shops, lunch places, and so on.




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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to esc on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 09:00:37
    esc wrote to Nightfox <=-

    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    The reason it is big news is because most EV power is generated by fossil
    fuel, so you are trading off having the emmissions come out of your car vs.
    the local coal plant.

    They are not going to find enough alternate fuel to cover the increased
    demand of everyone switching to EVs. Maybe one day, but not likely in our lifetime and certainly not by 2035.




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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Gamgee on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 06:05:00
    It's available. Nuclear. We just need to build more plants.

    Nuclear in the traditional power plant sense is hiddeously expensive, and
    still has a monstrous carbon component to build. There appears to be some
    hope for small modular reactors as you could simply place one where you need extra power. Its biggest problem is people are scared of it, and nobody wants to live near it. In spite of it being one of the lowest deaths/kWh modes of generation.

    Spec


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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Spectre on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 19:39:00
    Spectre wrote to Gamgee <=-

    It's available. Nuclear. We just need to build more plants.

    Nuclear in the traditional power plant sense is hiddeously
    expensive, and still has a monstrous carbon component to build.

    Fairly true, but in the long run is probably cheaper.

    There appears to be some hope for small modular reactors as you
    could simply place one where you need extra power.

    Indeed, and this is promising technology.

    Its biggest
    problem is people are scared of it, and nobody wants to live near
    it. In spite of it being one of the lowest deaths/kWh modes of
    generation.

    Probably true, and the solution to that is simply..... education. I would think the eco-fanatics would be leading the way on that, but somehow ....
    even they lack education.




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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Blue White on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 19:50:00
    Blue White wrote to esc <=-

    The reason I think things like this are destined to fail are mostly because the big benefit of EV is that the car is completely agnostic to the fuel source.

    The reason it is big news is because most EV power is generated
    by fossil fuel, so you are trading off having the emmissions come
    out of your car vs. the local coal plant.

    This! Exactly the reason electric vehicle technology is smoke and
    mirrors.

    They are not going to find enough alternate fuel to cover the
    increased demand of everyone switching to EVs. Maybe one day,
    but not likely in our lifetime and certainly not by 2035.

    Absolutely correct.

    We need to resume building nuclear power plants *yesterday*.




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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Gamgee on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 22:31:00
    Fairly true, but in the long run is probably cheaper.

    Apparently not... at least for some ~50 years of operation.. the up front
    costs outweigh any saving in actual power generation for a large proportion
    of your traditional reactors operational life. Sabine Hossenfelder popped
    out an interesting video on it recently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kahih8RT1k

    One of the other things that popped up was if we turn heavily to fission
    based generation we only have sufficient fuel for a very limited time.. 10-20 years worth of uranium.

    Probably true, and the solution to that is simply..... education. I would think the eco-fanatics would be leading the way on that, but somehow .... even they lack education.

    Not sure education is sufficient to overcome greenwashing of nuclear anything being "Baaahhhhhd". Unfortunately education is probably still going to scare some proportion of the population off the idea as well. Greenies, especially modern ones seem to be less interested in science and education, compared to blindly following some crackpot, or crackpot ideas. Its obtained something of
    a religious fervor.

    Spec


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Blue White on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 08:36:00
    Blue White wrote to esc <=-

    The reason it is big news is because most EV power is generated by
    fossil fuel, so you are trading off having the emmissions come out of
    your car vs. the local coal plant.

    What would be better for the environment, though - 1000 internal
    combustion engines or 1000 EVs pulling energy from a grid consisting of
    coal, wind, and solar?

    Sure, now it's mostly coal. Renewable is picking up momentum.



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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Spectre on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 12:29:00
    Spectre wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Fairly true, but in the long run is probably cheaper.

    Apparently not... at least for some ~50 years of operation.. the
    up front costs outweigh any saving in actual power generation for
    a large proportion of your traditional reactors operational life.
    Sabine Hossenfelder popped out an interesting video on it
    recently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kahih8RT1k

    TL;DR ... That's more of just a question of "green-ness", anyway.

    One of the other things that popped up was if we turn heavily to
    fission based generation we only have sufficient fuel for a very
    limited time.. 10-20 years worth of uranium.

    Got to disagree with that completely. These sources would agree with
    me:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/nuclear/comments/o79stp/how_long_will_the_uranium_resources_last/
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-long-will-global-uranium-deposits-last/
    https://encoreuranium.com/uranium/the-future-of-nuclear-energy/

    Those estimates run from 80 - 200 years, and maybe MUCH longer (breeder reactors). In my opinion, that is long enough for us to get things
    figured out and use another source, such as thorium; or hopefully,
    fusion.

    Probably true, and the solution to that is simply..... education. I would think the eco-fanatics would be leading the way on that, but somehow .... even they lack education.

    Not sure education is sufficient to overcome greenwashing of
    nuclear anything being "Baaahhhhhd". Unfortunately education is
    probably still going to scare some proportion of the population
    off the idea as well. Greenies, especially modern ones seem to
    be less interested in science and education, compared to blindly
    following some crackpot, or crackpot ideas. Its obtained
    something of a religious fervor.

    Unfortunately, very true.

    I still stand firmly in the camp of nuclear as the solution.



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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Blue White on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 12:53:41
    The reason it is big news is because most EV power is generated by fossil fuel, so you are trading off having the emmissions come out of your car vs. the local coal plant.

    They are not going to find enough alternate fuel to cover the increased demand of everyone switching to EVs. Maybe one day, but not likely in
    our lifetime and certainly not by 2035.


    I agree. I'm more interested in remote work as a factor that can trigger lower emissions than this.. even if I include continual suburbanization as disturbing argument. More people need to travel less and more local shopping plus better logistics to deliver goods and services locally may both trigger accelerated adoption of EVs for just local, super short distance commuting and less need for commuting you can't do by bike anyway.

    My grand parents when they were young they were all commuting by bikes more than cars.. I think I'll be a grand father to kids who while adults become more stick to bikes and scooters than cars too..

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 19, 2023 06:05:00
    What would be better for the environment, though - 1000 internal combustion engines or 1000 EVs pulling energy from a grid consisting of coal, wind, and solar?

    Sure, now it's mostly coal. Renewable is picking up momentum.

    Even at the poor nominal efficieny of your ICE, given the laws of thermodynamics in the power generation chain, I expect ICE is still going to
    be better. Its pretty unlikely renewables will ever be able supply majority power. Given that you're going to wildly increase power consumption by giving everyone an EV and you're taking away some of the best possible generation we have.


    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Gamgee on Thursday, October 19, 2023 17:23:00
    TL;DR ... That's more of just a question of "green-ness", anyway.

    While that's the premise, it actually covers a lot of interesting information not directly tied to being green, but associated costs and requirements.

    Got to disagree with that completely. These sources would agree with

    Guess it depends on how much of it you're using, and how much generation you require. Now more than ever with the electric utopia mirage on the horizon power requirements will be higher than ever.

    Those estimates run from 80 - 200 years, and maybe MUCH longer (breeder reactors). In my opinion, that is long enough for us to get things

    Breeders have their own issues, and create plutonium not enriched uranium. While that could be used as fuel, it'll ultimately expire.

    reactors). In my opinion, that is long enough for us to get things figured out and use another source, such as thorium; or hopefully,
    fusion.

    Not so sure, fusion might arrive tomorrow, or maybe its already here and its
    at area51. But its been RSN all of my life, probably just as likely to come
    up with the first dyson sphere.

    I still stand firmly in the camp of nuclear as the solution.

    I can only see it as a short-mid term solution, which is something its
    probably not ideal for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIQE-EUpMa8

    This one is a nuclear physicist's reaction to sabine's nuclear video.. for
    the most part she's in agreement.

    Spec


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  • From Dr. What@21:1/616 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 19, 2023 07:13:09
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Blue White <=-

    What would be better for the environment, though - 1000 internal
    combustion engines or 1000 EVs pulling energy from a grid consisting
    of
    coal, wind, and solar?

    Sure, now it's mostly coal. Renewable is picking up momentum.

    I worked for GM Powertrain Engineering about 20 years ago. At that time, we needed to get new emissions benches to measure the exhaust because the engine exhaust was nearly indistinguishable from the input air (granted this was downtown Flint, MI).

    The idea that "all those cars pollute so much" is only true if you accept the myth that carbon dioxide is a "pollutant".


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to hollowone on Thursday, October 19, 2023 08:29:00
    hollowone wrote to Blue White <=-

    I agree. I'm more interested in remote work as a factor that can
    trigger lower emissions than this.. even if I include continual suburbanization as disturbing argument.

    I worked in Boston for a month on an assignment, and stayed at a hotel
    3 blocks from the office. That was heaven.

    San Francisco traffic was so bad at one point that I could half my
    evening commute by buying a hybrid that was eligible for carpool
    stickers.

    After a decade of that, I've been working from home for 3 years, and
    the flexibility has been invaluable, with 2 kids in school and an
    elderly parent nearby.

    Best commute ever? The Oakland-San Francisco ferry. A nice, relaxed
    cruise in a catamaran ferry with table seating, coffee and donuts in the morning, and a view of the sun going down behind downtown San Francisco
    as the ferry took off under the bay bridge. Grab a beer from the bar, go
    to the upper deck, and on the odd Thursday night listen to "Ship of
    Fools" a band made up of long-time ferry riders.

    I worked in South of Market in San Francisco, a couple of blocks walk
    from the ferry.

    At night, the ferry dropped me off in Jack London Square in Oakland, near a shopping area with bars, restaurants and a huge bookstore.







    More people need to travel less
    and more local shopping plus better logistics to deliver goods and services locally may both trigger accelerated adoption of EVs for just local, super short distance commuting and less need for commuting you can't do by bike anyway.

    My grand parents when they were young they were all commuting by bikes more than cars.. I think I'll be a grand father to kids who while
    adults become more stick to bikes and scooters than cars too..

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere
    copy.

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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to Spectre on Thursday, October 19, 2023 07:53:03
    Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    What would be better for the environment, though - 1000 internal combustion engines or 1000 EVs pulling energy from a grid consisting of coal, wind, and solar?

    Sure, now it's mostly coal. Renewable is picking up momentum.

    Even at the poor nominal efficieny of your ICE, given the laws of thermodynamics in the power generation chain, I expect ICE is still
    going to be better. Its pretty unlikely renewables will ever be able supply majority power. Given that you're going to wildly increase power consumption by giving everyone an EV and you're taking away some of the best possible generation we have.

    This. You answered the question better than I could have.


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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 19, 2023 11:56:29
    More people need to travel less

    That's exactly what I refer to :)

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Dr. What on Thursday, October 19, 2023 20:18:45
    The idea that "all those cars pollute so much" is only true if you
    accept the myth that carbon dioxide is a "pollutant".

    I guess? I mean, cars still pollute in a variety of other ways. Though, really, the better long-term solution is trains, since they're wildly more efficient.

    But not like it's making concrete or running a filterless coal power plant.

    That said, while I'm unlikely to be directly injured from a higher carbon dioxide level, there _is_ the fairly-well-documented history of the planet where spiking carbon dioxide levels has lead to (or, at the least, is very strongly correlated with) apocalyptic species die offs something like 6 times in the history of the Earth.

    But that's just carbon dioxide facts, and this is definitely not the place for opinions on such topics, as dealing with climate change is much too much of a political topic to be able to talk about it much, here.

    Which, honestly, is why it's been good that we've been talking about how having EVs will affect us personally. And hopefully Avon gets something that fits his needs well.

    I don't think an EV is in my near future, but that's largely because I've generally avoided owning cars. I'm not particularly great at maintenance, and I've tended to live in places where parking is a hassle. So I'd rather find alternative ways and/or rent.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 19, 2023 20:28:08
    Best commute ever? The Oakland-San Francisco ferry. A nice, relaxed
    cruise in a catamaran ferry with table seating, coffee and donuts in the morning, and a view of the sun going down behind downtown San Francisco
    as the ferry took off under the bay bridge. Grab a beer from the bar, go to the upper deck, and on the odd Thursday night listen to "Ship of
    Fools" a band made up of long-time ferry riders.

    That _does_ sound pretty decent.

    And San Francisco is _much_ too crowded for cars to reliably be much fun to have around. I lived in the vicinity for a bit, and, yeah, you _can_ have a car, but you'll invariably end up paying expensive parking tickets for one reason or another.

    And suffering through long traffic jams.

    I'm sad that BART doesn't cover more areas. E.g., New York seems to have multiple redundant lines, and the SF side of things does is a mish-mash of MUNI trains and buses. E.g., if you want to take BART into the City, but want to go to Fisherman's Wharf / Pier 39 for a tourist experience, you'll likely have to pop out at the last stop before the bay, then get on a 1930s-era museum street car that's half experience and half public transit. (and, no, I do not mean the famous trolleys. These are different pieces of old equipment, brought from Italy or elsewhere.)

    Or else walk for 40 minutes, and have to walk back later.

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  • From Dr. What@21:1/616 to Adept on Friday, October 20, 2023 07:26:38
    Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I guess? I mean, cars still pollute in a variety of other ways. Though, really, the better long-term solution is trains, since they're wildly
    more efficient.

    The problem is that the passenger train infrastructure has long been dismantled with the exception of some long-range travel.

    That said, while I'm unlikely to be directly injured from a higher
    carbon dioxide level, there _is_ the fairly-well-documented history of
    the planet where spiking carbon dioxide levels has lead to (or, at the least, is very strongly correlated with) apocalyptic species die offs something like 6 times in the history of the Earth.

    They are somewhat correct. When that asteroid hit the planet, it set all the trees on fire, which caused CO2 to rise dramatically. But the CO2 rise wasn't the cause of the problem.

    But that's just carbon dioxide facts,

    No. That's CO2 propaganda.


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  • From k9zw@21:1/224 to Avon on Friday, October 20, 2023 15:32:29
    On 11 Oct 2023, Avon said the following...

    So I'm looking at getting an EV and have been learning a lot about them, batteries etc. Wondering if anyone here is driving one? Has any
    experience with them?

    I have a Volvo XC40 Recharge - a full battery EV.

    Pros

    Goes like stink
    Very quiet
    Really nice car to drive
    All the usually solid Volvo characterists

    Cons

    Limited range, that is really limited by overly cold or hot weather
    Realistic charging needs require an expensive charger
    Range anxity (in spades)
    XC40 is smaller than we should have picked - the XC60 would be better
    Good Chargers cost money (about USD $800/each) and electrician's help (one ran $600 and other $180 to install)
    The Really-Good Rapid Chargers are crazy expensive (50% of the cost of the car) The included charger is a joke, takes 20+ hours to recharge if you are lucky Resale is limited (we expect to trade this one for a new Volvo)

    Steve
    K9ZW

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  • From k9zw@21:1/224 to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, October 20, 2023 15:36:44
    On 17 Oct 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

    Nightfox wrote to esc <=-

    Also, I'd wonder that the existing gas station infrastructure could probably be more easily adapted to carry ammonia - They might just ne to fill one of their tanks with ammonia instead of gasoline or diesel and use the existing pumps to pump it.


    The smart coffee shop will set up fast DC chargers outside their shops,
    so people can come in and buy a coffee/pastry/hang out while their car charges. Imagine if you could charge your car at any Starbucks?


    I am told the fast chargers are about USD $30k/each installed. Is that a viable investment to gain customers? The math could be enlightening.

    Steve
    K9ZW

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to k9zw on Friday, October 20, 2023 19:48:20
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: k9zw to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Oct 20 2023 03:36 pm

    I am told the fast chargers are about USD $30k/each installed. Is that a viable investment to gain customers? The math could be enlightening.

    I can see how private businesses might not be interested in spending that money. Instead of each private business being responsible for installing EV chargers, perhaps that's an opportunity for there to be companies that just install and manage/service EV chargers, and perhaps they could coordinate with cities to have their EV chargers installed in parking lots in various commercial zones. Then, private companies wouldn't have to worry about EV charging stations, similar to how private companies currently don't worry about which gas stations are nearby.

    Nightfox
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Dr. What on Saturday, October 21, 2023 09:49:13
    The problem is that the passenger train infrastructure has long been dismantled with the exception of some long-range travel.

    I mean, any solution that changes how people move around (including building more lanes for cars or anything involving EVs) requires a large amount of investment.

    But, yes, the solution for, "take more trains" is not a personal choice, in the US, as it is in much of Europe.

    least, is very strongly correlated with) apocalyptic species die offs something like 6 times in the history of the Earth.
    They are somewhat correct. When that asteroid hit the planet, it set

    Not what I said, though I was incorrect in what I said, and, yes, that's one example.

    But of the extinction events in Earth's history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
    ...evidently there's reason to think that increases or decreases in atmospheric carbon levels played a role.

    But that's just carbon dioxide facts,
    No. That's CO2 propaganda.

    Anyway, clearly we have to stop. I tried to stick to straight facts rather than including my opinions, but that was still called propaganda.

    Which means that it must inherently be a political topic, regardless of what objective reality is.

    So I'll leave it there. Have a pleasant day, and we'll move back to other topics.

    Like how Avon has been stealing all the daylight, and it's unfortunate. Ah well.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Saturday, October 21, 2023 10:00:05
    lots in various commercial zones. Then, private companies wouldn't have
    to worry about EV charging stations, similar to how private companies currently don't worry about which gas stations are nearby.

    Your description sounded an awful lot like the various rest stops with gas stations, bathrooms, food, and caffeinated beverages.

    Which made me wonder something that EV owners might be able to answer -- when people go to the highway-access-only rest areas, are there pretty much always fast chargers available at those places?

    I'm sure those are pretty natural places to put charging equipment, if at all possible, so I'm mostly wondering how thorough the coverage is, wherever people live.

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  • From Dr. What@21:1/616 to Adept on Saturday, October 21, 2023 08:49:56
    Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I mean, any solution that changes how people move around (including building more lanes for cars or anything involving EVs) requires a
    large amount of investment.

    But it also requires a large number of people who need to go from Point A to Point B (and probably back) in order to be profitable enough.

    In the U.S., because we are such a large country, and because we wanted to spread out more, passenger rail became unprofitable as more and more roads were paved. We even went through a time of spreading out before then with the Interurbans (think longer haul street cars).

    But, yes, the solution for, "take more trains" is not a personal
    choice, in the US, as it is in much of Europe.

    Most places in Europe are much smaller. I think most countries in the EU are about the same size as just a state here in the U.S.

    Then they had the opportunity to re-plan their infrastructure after WWII.

    But of the extinction events in Earth's history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
    ...evidently there's reason to think that increases or decreases in atmospheric carbon levels played a role.

    But there's still a question about cause and effect. Did the extinction event happen because of CO2 levels, or did CO2 levels rise because of the extinction event?

    Anyway, clearly we have to stop. I tried to stick to straight facts
    rather than including my opinions, but that was still called
    propaganda.

    When you post facts, I won't call them propaganda.

    The problem we have today is that too many "experts" aren't and cherry pick the facts that support their Narrative, and ignore the facts that don't.


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Saturday, October 21, 2023 10:05:32
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Nightfox on Sat Oct 21 2023 10:00 am

    lots in various commercial zones. Then, private companies wouldn't have
    to worry about EV charging stations, similar to how private companies
    currently don't worry about which gas stations are nearby.

    Your description sounded an awful lot like the various rest stops with gas stations, bathrooms, food, and caffeinated beverages.

    Yeah, my idea was based on the fact that gas stations are independently owned, so perhaps EV charging stations for parking lots should be independently owned.

    Nightfox
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Dr. What on Saturday, October 21, 2023 21:44:16
    But it also requires a large number of people who need to go from Point
    A to Point B (and probably back) in order to be profitable enough.

    I suppose, but _roads_ aren't profitable, so I'm not sure why trains have to be.

    That said, there are reasons why the more-useful lines being built are along the East Coast and from SF to LA.

    But that's long-distance. I tend to think that shorter-distance trains are generally more interesting, anyway. As I'm not going to commute on a daily basis from LA to SF, but going from San Jose to SF (or vice versa) is at least somewhat reasonable.

    Most places in Europe are much smaller. I think most countries in the
    EU are about the same size as just a state here in the U.S.

    Yeah. Lack of density certainly makes the economics harder.

    But there's still a question about cause and effect. Did the extinction event happen because of CO2 levels, or did CO2 levels rise because of
    the extinction event?

    I think there was some evidence that the change in CO2 levels came before the extinction events, but, yeah, if it's just two things at the same time, then, sure, harder to tell.

    I'm not an expert in that part of the field, and have little interest in doing a deep fact check, here, at the moment.

    When you post facts, I won't call them propaganda.

    *sigh*.

    As usual, I regret engaging. My apologies to anyone I annoyed by engaging.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Saturday, October 21, 2023 21:47:09
    Yeah, my idea was based on the fact that gas stations are independently owned, so perhaps EV charging stations for parking lots should be independently owned.

    And, on the bright side, power cables and stations in a likely-already-existing parking lot are probably way easier/more reasonable/better 20 years down the road than a gas station is.

    But, yeah, it'll be interesting to see the economics of it all.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Dr. What@21:1/616 to Adept on Sunday, October 22, 2023 14:05:22
    Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I suppose, but _roads_ aren't profitable, so I'm not sure why trains
    have to be.

    Roads are subsidized. They are profitable for the leeches off the gov't, but for no one else.

    If you don't understand why trains need to be profitable, you need to re-take Economics 101.

    That said, there are reasons why the more-useful lines being built are along the East Coast and from SF to LA.

    To handle the traffic in those areas. Duh! That doesn't mean that what they build there will work anywhere else.

    Also, those train lines are subsidized by the taxpayers.

    But that's long-distance. I tend to think that shorter-distance trains
    are generally more interesting, anyway. As I'm not going to commute on
    a daily basis from LA to SF, but going from San Jose to SF (or vice
    versa) is at least somewhat reasonable.

    And the same taxpayer subsidized trains here. How many of those routes would exist if the subsidies went away?

    When you post facts, I won't call them propaganda.

    *sigh*.

    As usual, I regret engaging. My apologies to anyone I annoyed by
    engaging.

    Are you Dale, or Lee, or maybe Al? The Ignorant Elitists like to change their handles so people won't recognize them.


    ... Did you expect mere proof to sway my opinion?
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Sunday, October 22, 2023 09:41:00
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    And San Francisco is _much_ too crowded for cars to reliably be much
    fun to have around. I lived in the vicinity for a bit, and, yeah, you _can_ have a car, but you'll invariably end up paying expensive parking tickets for one reason or another.

    I went to SFSU and afterwards worked/lived in the city for 10 years. Had
    a car the whole time. Paid a lot in parking tickets, being in my 20s I'd
    always miss what was the 1st and 3rd sunday between 1:00am and 5:00am
    and get a street cleaning ticket.

    Friends of mine took the bus and rented cars when they needed one. I
    thought the price of renting a car was high, but over the year it was
    cheaper than parking tickets!

    The sad thing is I didn't really *need* a car for much in the city,
    except dating and furnishing an apartment. Meeting friends out for a
    drink, I'd usually walk or take the bus and not worry about driving
    home.

    I'm sad that BART doesn't cover more areas. E.g., New York seems to
    have multiple redundant lines, and the SF side of things does is a mish-mash of MUNI trains and buses. E.g., if you want to take BART into the City, but want to go to Fisherman's Wharf / Pier 39 for a tourist experience, you'll likely have to pop out at the last stop before the
    bay, then get on a 1930s-era museum street car that's half experience
    and half public transit. (and, no, I do not mean the famous trolleys. These are different pieces of old equipment, brought from Italy or elsewhere.)

    The reality is that San Franciscans rarely used to leave SF. They felt
    like they had everything they could want in the City, so why leave?



    Or else walk for 40 minutes, and have to walk back later.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to k9zw on Sunday, October 22, 2023 09:44:00
    k9zw wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I am told the fast chargers are about USD $30k/each installed. Is that
    a viable investment to gain customers? The math could be enlightening.

    Sounds good when I said it, but the math doesn't work out. People
    probably said the same of the minimal investment in adding wifi to a
    coffee shop, and it just made people stay longer while maybe ordering
    another drink. I bet most coffee shop owners who looked at churn
    pre-wifi saw more people coming in and out than now with people camping
    out.

    120K for 4 chargers, plus electricity - and a EV owner is going to go in
    and nurse a small coffee for 30 minutes.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to k9zw on Sunday, October 22, 2023 12:04:00
    k9zw wrote to Avon <=-

    Pros

    Goes like stink
    Very quiet
    Really nice car to drive
    All the usually solid Volvo characterists


    My BMW i3 has all of those traits.


    Cons

    Limited range, that is really limited by overly cold or hot weather

    The i3 has a battery heater - you tell it when you're leaving and it'll condition the battery when you're ready to leave.

    Realistic charging needs require an expensive charger

    I've read a lot about charging recently. I was lucky in that I had an electrical line run to my carport. Unlucky that this was long before I'd
    read up on it and they pulled a 10 awg wire, which only is rated for 20
    amps. So, realistically, I can only charge at 220v/16 amps.

    My car came with a level 2 charger that would do 32 amps on a 40 amp
    circuit, and I was originally bummed about it, but charging at the lower
    speed will let me get a full charge overnight. That's good enough for
    now.

    Range anxity (in spades)

    I get a lot of that, my car will do 120 miles optimally, with another 80
    miles on the range extender (a small gas engine that charges the
    battery). I'm coming from a Prius plug-in that would do 460 miles on a
    10 gallon tank with a gallon in reserve.

    XC40 is smaller than we should have picked - the XC60 would be better

    I'm married and we have an SUV, so size wasn't an issue here. I work
    from home and use the EV as a town car mostly. While they're small,
    they're not as small as small cars used to be - car design is getting
    much more efficient. I can fit 3 adults and a teen in my car in a pinch
    for an hour ride.


    Good Chargers cost money (about USD $800/each) and electrician's help
    (one ran $600 and other $180 to install)

    Portable level 2 chargers seem pretty good. The BMW branded one is $399,
    and I've seen popular chargers on Amazon for $299. All you need is a
    plug to plug it into.

    I've seen some interesting boxes that let you plug your charger into
    your dryer outlet, and it locks out one or the other to let you share
    the outlet with a car charger. If you had a washer/dryer in your garage,
    you'd be set.

    The Really-Good Rapid Chargers
    are crazy expensive (50% of the cost of the car)

    There are some rebates available through states and your local power
    utility, check them out if you're looking to install one.

    The included charger
    is a joke, takes 20+ hours to recharge if you are lucky

    Yeah, mine came with a level 1 charger, they're dang slow.

    I love the i3, but part of me is thinking I should have bought another
    Prius Plug-in. The engines and drivetrains are dependable - I did 180K
    on my Prius and was still on the first set of brakes. I'd done the
    basic maintenance - plugs, coolant and brake fluid and it never failed
    me.

    Nexcell is selling improved batteries - they're promising twice the
    charge at around half of the weight of the original batteries. Better
    MPG and range than stock (48 highway, 50 city) and 12 miles EV range.

    For around $14K, you could have a pretty great ride. mid 50s MPG, 25
    miles of EV would be more than enough for a weekend of driving or
    weekday commutes.






    --- Steve K9ZW via SPOT BBS

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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Adept on Sunday, October 22, 2023 13:23:38
    Or else walk for 40 minutes, and have to walk back later.

    40mins walk ain't bad, assuming area is stable/safe. Especially if your big city attitude is already hardened to drive 1.5h one direction every day.

    I'd prefer to walk if I could walk back home within 40mins.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Monday, October 23, 2023 06:34:00
    I suppose, but _roads_ aren't profitable, so I'm not sure why trains have to be.

    I don't believe they have to be. At the end of the day they're
    infrastructure, the teeming masses would be screaming if we didn't have
    either of those things.

    I would hazard to suggest generally the road may be slightly cheaper as after its built you're not supplying the rolling stock. Thats up to them as use it. While the train requires more infrastructure inputs to keep on working.

    Here most intercity trains are pretty woeful, been a long time since I last took one, but it was something like 16hrs for a nominal 8hr road trip.
    However nagging at the back of my mind, is the point that for cargo purposes
    so long as it went where needed, they were becoming cheaper than trucking here... and we have some seriously large trucks here, road trains, B
    triples.. mostly due to fuel costs, the train being far more efficient especially over distance.

    But that's long-distance. I tend to think that shorter-distance trains are generally more interesting, anyway. As I'm not going to commute on a daily basis from LA to SF, but going from San Jose to SF (or vice versa) is at least somewhat reasonable.

    I find our public transport, all of it, busses, trains we have trams too, to
    be somewhat woeful. Not that it directly relates, but I swear every bus
    driver thinks he's Fangio, last few times I've had to resort to a fairly
    local trip I've needed a belt of pain relief at the end of the trip.. Our trains vary wildly... from line to line and time of day. I used to live on
    one of the better serviced lines. Back then the cost was reasonable, to get into the city and you'd get there in ~40mins.. while if you took the car
    you'd have to get there either about 2hrs early to secure one of the very few spots that were free to park, or you'd have to pay for the time the hiddeous fee for a lot. If you left at a civilised time you'd have traffic coming out the wazoo and catch the parking debacle. Parking's only gotten more
    expensive, but so have PT here.

    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Monday, October 23, 2023 06:49:00
    But there's still a question about cause and effect. Did the extinction event happen because of CO2 levels, or did CO2 levels rise because of
    the extinction event?

    I think there was some evidence that the change in CO2 levels came before the extinction events, but, yeah, if it's just two things at the same time, then, sure, harder to tell.

    At some stage in the past.. the atmosphere had pretty much no free oxygen and
    a far larger percentage of CO2. The great Oxidation event killed most of
    what was around before it. So things change...Its probably also food for thought for the greenhouse gas club too... in geological time we may just be living in an abberation.

    If you think something like the chicxulub impact, then you'd have to expect
    any increase in CO2 is due to the cook off of most of the planetary surface, you burn all that, that's got to be consuming oxygen hand over fist. But its your following "nuclear winter" that's probably got to hurt the most.

    The other mostly likely is an extra belt of S02 due to natural phenomena like volcanic action. Its an irritant and also contributes to cooling by
    producing haze, along with the solids to give you a Volcanic winter.

    Spec


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  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to Adept on Monday, October 23, 2023 13:19:52
    *sigh*.
    As usual, I regret engaging. My apologies to anyone I annoyed by

    You just do what you do, right or wrong or somewhere in between your input has value. Don't mind the cranky section, not sure why they're not happy to pop out their own views and see what happens rather than jamming it down your throat.

    As they say, opinions are like arseholes, everyones got one...

    ST

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to acn on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:24:34
    On 11 Oct 2023 at 11:34a, acn pondered and said...

    I just bought a pre-owned Renault Zoe and will get it on Friday :)

    congrats on the purchase :)

    I will use it mainly for driving to work and in the nearby area, we
    also have a Toyota Yaris hybrid for longer distances.

    cool

    So I don't really have experience yet, but I hope to have it soon :)

    it will be fund to swap notes as you get to know the in's and outs of the car.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:29:21
    On 13 Oct 2023 at 02:03p, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I just bought a used 2018 BMW i3 with range extender, 14K miles. They're great little "city" cars perfectly capable of the occasional trip. It's

    Thanks for the big reply and all the info.

    Super helpful.

    At this stage we're getting a couple of vehicles. An EV6 and a BYD Dolphin.
    I hear you with regards to getting a good charging power plan. I've arranged one with our current retail supplier and will have better kWh rates from 9pm to 7am.

    Tomorrow we have someone coming to install a Wallbox unit. I'll be shutting down 1/100 and 1/10 HUBs over that time while the sparky does his thing. I have posted an update in FSX_NET about that outage. :)

    Yes it's a brave new world for us but I'm looking forward to being part of it.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to esc on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:31:56
    On 15 Oct 2023 at 12:21a, esc pondered and said...

    I have a 2018 Fiat 500E - a compliance car that was only sold in California and Oregon for a few years. Stellantis lost like $15k on each one of these sold, it's actually a fantastic little commuter.

    The downside to me is that I don't get a ton of range with this vehicle, but it made me a believer in the technology. If you can swing getting solar on your home, it even sweetens the deal.

    In our household we're opting for a car that will be essentially for around city driving and a different vehicle with longer range for those between city hops. It's interesting to assess the EV market and see what has done well and which brands/models have not shifted as much.

    Seems to me people (where they are able) are buying EVs with the longest range they can. Especially if the shorter range version is only 3-4k difference etc.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:32:58
    On 16 Oct 2023 at 06:34a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    an actual standard, and most cars take that. There's a CCS plug that supports J1772 fast charging, then CHAdeMO, which supports some japanese brands, and Tesla has their own.

    both these are here in New Zealand but I think CCS is the main one now, some of the Nissan Leaf's are running the CHAdeMo ones. I think :)

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:38:38
    On 19 Oct 2023 at 08:18p, Adept pondered and said...

    But that's just carbon dioxide facts, and this is definitely not the
    place for opinions on such topics, as dealing with climate change is
    much too much of a political topic to be able to talk about it much,
    here.

    Which, honestly, is why it's been good that we've been talking about how having EVs will affect us personally. And hopefully Avon gets something that fits his needs well.

    :)

    I think we've landed in our household at an acceptable place for cost vs range etc.. the main drivers for us to change were cost to maintain our current ICE cars and the rapidly climbing costs of petrol on this side of the globe. At the moment 91 octane is around $2.89 a litre and 95 retails for $3.09 ... there's a website called gaspy.nz that tracks it.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to k9zw on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:39:52
    On 20 Oct 2023 at 03:32p, k9zw pondered and said...

    I have a Volvo XC40 Recharge - a full battery EV.
    Pros

    Goes like stink

    heheheh... love it

    Cons

    Limited range, that is really limited by overly cold or hot weather Realistic charging needs require an expensive charger
    Range anxity (in spades)

    seems like most of the cars are also in the same boat ;)

    Good Chargers cost money (about USD $800/each) and electrician's help
    (one ran $600 and other $180 to install)

    Our guy has quoted $500 to install but I'll know for sure in the coming days.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From apam@21:1/101 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 13:51:03
    As usual, I regret engaging. My apologies to anyone I annoyed by
    engaging.

    I like reading your posts. Don't apologise, if people are annoyed by your posts that's really their problem, because you've always been thoughtful and even handed.

    There are quiet a few people on bbses who don't like discussion, unless it agrees with their politics, and in the end it seems everything is political.

    Don't let them bother you, just post and ignore the noise :)

    Andrew

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:37:03
    The reality is that San Franciscans rarely used to leave SF. They felt like they had everything they could want in the City, so why leave?

    Well, sure, but getting from the Mission district to Fisherman's Wharf is not a quick process, I think.

    But I guess people probably oftentimes didn't even leave their _neighborhoods_, so traveling to the other side of the City could reasonably be a longer trip, I imagine.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:39:17
    120K for 4 chargers, plus electricity - and a EV owner is going to go in and nurse a small coffee for 30 minutes.

    On the other hand, as long as the EV owners pay for charging, nursing a small coffee for 30 minutes might be profitable for other reasons.

    But, yeah, probably isn't great on its own.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Spectre on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:45:59
    I would hazard to suggest generally the road may be slightly cheaper as after its built you're not supplying the rolling stock. Thats up to them as use it. While the train requires more infrastructure inputs to keep
    on working.

    True, though I think, "government subsidized for making the tracks work and setting the rules, free market for the rolling stock" would be an option.

    Basically, like how roads are mostly used up by the large trucks on them, and buses exist, too, and the same is true on railroads, just without all the personal vehicles mixed in.

    But I don't know. I mostly just want to be able to get from point A to point B, and have options to do so without being forced to own a car.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to StormTrooper on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:51:52
    You just do what you do, right or wrong or somewhere in between your
    input has value. Don't mind the cranky section, not sure why they're

    Thanks for the kind words.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Avon on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:10:26
    I think we've landed in our household at an acceptable place for cost vs range etc.. the main drivers for us to change were cost to maintain our current ICE cars and the rapidly climbing costs of petrol on this side
    of the globe. At the moment 91 octane is around $2.89 a litre and 95 retails for $3.09 ... there's a website called gaspy.nz that tracks it.

    Nice!

    Well, that it's making sense for you, for what it is.

    Gas prices, maybe not so much, at least when you're having to pay it.

    I think it's about 2 EUR per liter, in Germany, at the moment. I guess maybe fifteen cents under that at many stations, but higher than that at the Autobahn stations.

    Which... is probably slightly more expensive than it is there, going by the current exchange rates.

    But nice to have other options.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to apam on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 12:50:23
    I like reading your posts. Don't apologise, if people are annoyed by
    your posts that's really their problem, because you've always been thoughtful and even handed.

    Thanks for the kind words.

    But, that said, I think I mostly just took the (almost certainly unintentional) bait, and I struggle with that. Not on the opinion side; just the, "I view this to be at odds with our current best understanding of objective reality, as known by using the scientific method." impulse I get.

    And with certain topics, it would make sense to just let it go, as it probably leads to more-pleasant discussions on here.

    And it's been interesting hearing about people's experiences with their EVs, whether getting or using them.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 07:21:35
    But I guess people probably oftentimes didn't even leave their _neighborhoods_, so traveling to the other side of the City could reasonably be a longer trip, I imagine.

    This is my experience with all my SF friends :)

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 07:24:16
    And it's been interesting hearing about people's experiences with their EVs, whether getting or using them.

    I _do_ think it's interesting that people who buy EVs tend to continue buying EVs. I suppose that means it's not as prohibitively expensive or unreasonable than detractors would have you think!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 07:57:00
    Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Tomorrow we have someone coming to install a Wallbox unit. I'll be shutting down 1/100 and 1/10 HUBs over that time while the sparky does
    his thing. I have posted an update in FSX_NET about that outage. :)

    I asked my electrician when he wanted to shut power down to install my
    240/20 circuit, and he told me there was no need. He did the connection
    in about 30 minutes with no power interruption.

    He's a braver man than I.




    ... The exception also declares the rule
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 07:59:00
    Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    On 16 Oct 2023 at 06:34a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    both these are here in New Zealand but I think CCS is the main one now, some of the Nissan Leaf's are running the CHAdeMo ones. I think :)

    Leafs (Leaves?) have both CHAdeMo and J1772, if I'm not mistaken - at
    least in the US.





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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 08:03:00
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    But I guess people probably oftentimes didn't even leave their _neighborhoods_, so traveling to the other side of the City could reasonably be a longer trip, I imagine.

    When I was finishing school, I lived in the outer Sunset. Took the bus,
    rode my bike or drove to SFSU. Went to the Safeway across the park on
    Fulton. Ran Lake Merced and the Great Highway.

    I'd realized I'd not left my neighborhood in months, nor had I seen the
    sun the whole time. Drove to the *inner* sunset and sat outside at a
    coffee shop in the sun, wondering how I'd forgotten about blue skies.

    If you have a walkable neighborhood, it's easy. I had a coffee shop,
    mexican restaurant, diner, health food store, convenience store, chinese restaurant, the beach and a park within walking distance of my house.





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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 08:06:00
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    120K for 4 chargers, plus electricity - and a EV owner is going to go in and nurse a small coffee for 30 minutes.

    On the other hand, as long as the EV owners pay for charging, nursing a small coffee for 30 minutes might be profitable for other reasons.

    But, yeah, probably isn't great on its own.

    Since home broadband is so fast these days, I wonder how many people
    *rely* on cafe broadband for fast internet access and spend all day
    working there?

    I work from home, and I spend a day a week working outside my house -
    either in my garden if the weather is nice, or at a coffee shop, to get
    out and see some people, get some time away from my dogs. I'll usually
    splurge and get something to eat, a coffee, and spend an hour or two,
    max. Not all day, like people used to complain about.

    I'm a notebook writer, I'm planning today on going to a coffee shop
    without my computer and review my notes from this year. I wonder how
    many people won't have computers with them?



    ... Where is the center of the maze?
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 09:25:00
    Avon wrote to esc <=-

    Seems to me people (where they are able) are buying EVs with the
    longest range they can. Especially if the shorter range version is only 3-4k difference etc.

    Buying a range extender was a bridge vehicle for me, a way to test the
    waters with an EV while hedging my bets on the charging scene around
    here.

    Although with the new battery technology, I was tempted to buy another
    Prius and swap out the battery for one of the new tech batteries -
    twice the power and half the weight. The Toyota head units are
    starting to show their age, with no map updates since 2014 and "dead"
    apps that no longer work because of licensing issues. Replacing the
    head unit with a modern Android HU would take care of that.

    Toyota gas engines are pretty reliable -- replace the fluids and plugs
    according to schedule, and you're done. There's an EGR valve that's an
    afternoon to clean that some people recommend around 200K. No timing
    belt to replace.

    Instead, I think I'm sticking with my i3 for 5+ years then looking for
    a 2023 Prius Prime.



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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to esc on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 16:10:33
    I _do_ think it's interesting that people who buy EVs tend to continue buying EVs. I suppose that means it's not as prohibitively expensive or unreasonable than detractors would have you think!

    Could also mean that, once you have your habits in place, you hardly want to change them again.

    On the other hand, people who have had an EV long enough to get a new one have certainly seen the market expand and get relatively cheaper while having an EV.

    And ICE cars are... not cheap, either, when getting a new one.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 20:47:41
    Since home broadband is so fast these days, I wonder how many people *rely* on cafe broadband for fast internet access and spend all day working there?

    I'd be surprised if folks rely on it, I suspect it's probably just a feature of extroversion - wanting to be around other people and hustle and bustle.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to StormTrooper on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 20:50:55
    If you've bought an EV obviously you're already on the kool aid, so its probably not a long stretch to continue doing so. Here any new car is hideously expensive, so much so I've never bought one, and therein is
    the rub. It'll be the "well off" that generally buy them, are they likely to be able to afford the extra 25% to join electric utopia probably. While for the rest of us plebs its enough to be a deal breaker.

    Regarding the kool aid, I could say the same about people that prefer ICE vehicles. They've just been drinking it longer :P

    Agreed about any new car being too costly these days. That said the playing field for ICE vs EV is leveling out. My Fiat 500E cost me $15k.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to esc on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 20:41:28
    I _do_ think it's interesting that people who buy EVs tend to continue buying EVs. I suppose that means it's not as prohibitively expensive or unreasonable than detractors would have you think!

    If you've bought an EV obviously you're already on the kool aid, so its probably not a long stretch to continue doing so. Here any new car is hideously expensive, so much so I've never bought one, and therein is the rub. It'll be the "well off" that generally buy them, are they likely to be able to afford the extra 25% to join electric utopia probably. While for the rest of us plebs its enough to be a deal breaker.

    Traditionally our new car sales are driven by the well heeled, and corporate fleets, while the rest of us buy into the ~2-5 year old range and the we have the really large almost 3rd world group where the vehicles are anything up to 30 years old.

    ST

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From unc0nnected@21:1/199 to Adept on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 21:56:40
    On the other hand, people who have had an EV long enough to get a new
    one have certainly seen the market expand and get relatively cheaper
    while having an EV.

    And ICE cars are... not cheap, either, when getting a new one.

    Even less over time as they get older. High upfront for low ongoing costs, or low upfront for high ongoing costs. We have a 2016 Suburu Hybrid and I'm working on the missus to get her around the the idea of selling it(at a profit from what we bought it at 2 years ago I might add) and getting an electric. The Model Y is at the top of my list because of the longest range and some of the largest internal volume but living in Canada with our cold winters and doing a couple 800-900 km trips each year makes it a harder sell than I would like it to be. Might compromise on a plugin hybrid for another 2 years and then see what advancements in battery tech do for the range in the 2026 models

    ... My tagline could eat your tagline for breakfast

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (21:1/199)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 21:42:28
    On 24 Oct 2023 at 07:57a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I asked my electrician when he wanted to shut power down to install my
    240/20 circuit, and he told me there was no need. He did the connection
    in about 30 minutes with no power interruption.

    Golly, yes well it went well today, he spent an hour or two on site, ran cable from the power meters / box inside the house and took it under the house and outside to a wooden fence we have at the top of our drive way / off street parking... it's a tidy job, I am regretting not getting a longer cable though, I think it's 5 meters that came with the unit but ideally it should have been 7.

    I've just plugged the car in and it's doing it's first charge.

    He did wind down the amps to a max of 20 instead of the 32 the single phase can deliver as there's a cut off switch wired into the circuit and the one he thought he had brought/ordered turned out to be a lower rated one that what he was intending to install.

    So that lower amperage is only temporary and he'll be back in 48 hours to swap out the cut off switch with a higher rated one and then up the juice the Wallbox will deliver.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 21:43:13
    On 24 Oct 2023 at 07:59a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    Leafs (Leaves?) have both CHAdeMo and J1772, if I'm not mistaken - at least in the US.

    I honestly don't know.. But you're most likely correct for the cars here also... I guess I'll find out over time, the whole thing is new to me at the
    moment :)

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Adept on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 21:47:03
    On 24 Oct 2023 at 12:10p, Adept pondered and said...

    Nice!
    Well, that it's making sense for you, for what it is.
    Gas prices, maybe not so much, at least when you're having to pay it.

    I'd normally budget $40 a week for petrol, that would give me 14 litres of fuel into a tank that would hold about 80 if full. It would give me a range of about 180-200kms (I think) and I'd use most of that up in a typical 7 day stretch, so to travel further (the classic Sunday drive etc.) was becoming out of reach / more costly than ever :(

    I do hope when the dust settles that the cost vs benefit works out in favour of the change, there's certainly a lot of upfront costs but I plan to stick with the vehicle for some time and not change any time soon... so hope to recover those costs and see some savings and increased range/mobility because of it :)

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 21:50:10
    On 24 Oct 2023 at 09:25a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    Buying a range extender was a bridge vehicle for me, a way to test the

    How does this device work? Is it a unit you take with you to plug into your EV to add range?

    twice the power and half the weight. The Toyota head units are
    starting to show their age, with no map updates since 2014 and "dead"

    Just starting to look at the tech in the cars now, it does seem (like any computer) the functionality and extensibility of the vehicle comes down to those updates that get pushed out from time to time.

    I've yet to experience that but the Kia brand (I'm guessing the BYD one also) seem to have updates coming out from time to time. I think I may be able to download and apply them via USB to the vehicle.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to StormTrooper on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 21:52:50
    On 24 Oct 2023 at 08:41p, StormTrooper pondered and said...

    probably not a long stretch to continue doing so. Here any new car is hideously expensive, so much so I've never bought one, and therein is
    the rub. It'll be the "well off" that generally buy them, are they likely to be able to afford the extra 25% to join electric utopia probably. While for the rest of us plebs its enough to be a deal breaker.

    Over here the government offered a $7000 rebate on an new EV purchased... so that has made quite an impact on the uptake and also motivated us to look at making the switch.

    Certainly not saying the whole EV thing is for everyone but for folks kinda on the fence and looking to get a new car of some sort ICE or EV it did help us make the change across.

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to esc on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 19:21:00
    Regarding the kool aid, I could say the same about people that prefer ICE vehicles. They've just been drinking it longer :P

    Chuckle maybe... maybe its a better flavour.. One supposes if we didn't drink that koolaid we'd either be driving steam cars or pushing horses along...

    Agreed about any new car being too costly these days. That said the playing field for ICE vs EV is leveling out. My Fiat 500E cost me $15k.

    I don't know if we have a 500E here, but local prices still add about 10-15k
    to the ICE version for an eclectic version.

    Looks like we do, list price on the E is $AU53k while the ICE version is some $AU25k from the little I can find online, preliminary search pops up those prices from cars guide.... tell me thats not a premium...that'd
    be a shit ton of solar KW to make up that much in fuel.

    On a completely seperate note.. our roads a maintained via fuel excise,
    they're starting to get ready to tax EV's to support the same, on a Km rate
    of some sort.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 11:10:12
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Adept on Tue Oct 24 2023 08:06 am

    Since home broadband is so fast these days, I wonder how many people *rely* on cafe broadband for fast internet access and spend all day working there?

    Sometimes I feel like I wouldn't mind working from a cafe, especially if I had been working from home for a while. However, if I only bought one thing to drink and sat there taking up a seat all day, I'd feel like they might not like that. I think they'd rather have seats available for other paying customers.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to esc on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 11:11:02
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Oct 24 2023 08:47 pm

    Since home broadband is so fast these days, I wonder how many people
    *rely* on cafe broadband for fast internet access and spend all day
    working there?

    I'd be surprised if folks rely on it, I suspect it's probably just a feature of extroversion - wanting to be around other people and hustle and bustle.

    I feel like I'm fairly introverted, but if I were working from home for many days in a row, I might feel like it would be refreshing to go out and work at a cafe.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 13:24:11
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Blue White on Wed Oct 18 2023 08:36 am

    What would be better for the environment, though - 1000 internal
    combustion engines or 1000 EVs pulling energy from a grid consisting of
    coal, wind, and solar?


    If you need to actually upgrade the grid to withstand such increased load, numbers might not be clear.

    Replacing alumminum alloy wiring nationwide is very energy intensive. You may also need to upgrade the grid towers and transformers and protection equipment.

    I know for a fact certain segments of the Spanish grid are on the verge of collapse due to the deployment of solar pannels, which is causing overvoltages. If a couple of 3kw solar arrays can take a village's grid out of the safety ranges then you can guess what will happen if you have a couple elecric cars sucking 5 kw without adjusting the grid's capabilities. "A couple" meaning all the cars we are supposed to have in the near future.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Adept on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 13:37:55
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Dr. What on Thu Oct 19 2023 08:18 pm

    I guess? I mean, cars still pollute in a variety of other ways. Though, real

    I am very biased against trains. I used to take trains to go to $work, but one day there was a grup of politicians and unionists in my same coach talking about how they were taking advantage of the train network to have so many lunches at the taxpayer's and traveller's expenses and decided to cut it off.

    Also you need to pass TSA-like access controls to board certain trains here. If I am a paying customer I am not gonna consent to that, period.

    ON a practical level, the problem with trains is there is no way on earth to have rails run to haƱlf the places that need means of transport. Nobody is ever building a train station in a 20 miles radius from where I live. If I need to go work from here I will need to use something else.

    Buses have an edge because they use existing infrastructure. This is the reason why I can take bus combinations to and from nearly any part of the country that matters to me. There is a bus stop I can reach in reasonable time by foot.

    And bus transport here is costs 25% what train transport does. THey keep pushing this idea that train's are worker's transport, but there is a reason why workers and humble travellers will take the bus any freaking day.

    Buses still fall so short, though, because you can't count on them being available when you need them. If your shcedules are not flexible you many still not be able to take the bus at all.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to k9zw on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 13:40:08
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: k9zw to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Oct 20 2023 03:36 pm

    I am told the fast chargers are about USD $30k/each installed. Is that a vi

    I think we can get them cheaper here, but ill I never see private chargers at restaurants or coffee shops used at all, so my gess is it is a bad investment unless the employees use it or something.

    --
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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Adept on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 13:48:49
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Dr. What on Sat Oct 21 2023 09:44 pm

    I suppose, but _roads_ aren't profitable, so I'm not sure why trains have to

    Some roads are so profitable that companies fight over the right to operate them privately.

    Main reason why services need to be profitable is that they need to be sustainable. Otherwise you will end up hitting a crisis sooner rather than later.

    --
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  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Arelor on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 15:48:18
    On 25 Oct 2023, Arelor said the following...

    ON a practical level, the problem with trains is there is no way on
    earth to have rails run to half the places that need means of
    transport. Nobody is ever building a train station in a 20 miles radius from where I live. If I need to go work from here I will need to use something else.

    indeed i remember even when i was in japan in the small town i lived in the only train was a good 15-20 minute bike ride at a brisk pace. closer to an hour if you walked.

    i would take the train down to another city about 30 miles away. since i'd no longer be in possession of my bicycle, my walk from the destination station would be around 10-15 minutes.

    total time spent: ca. 1 hr 50 min. for 30 miles.. then do that on the way back too. if you had to do that for work your total time investment might be like 7am -> 7pm if you somehow only worked 9-5.

    don't get me wrong.. it was a pleasant way to travel (there at least!) .. but imo advocating for trains-only transport pretty much puts everyone who doesn't want to commute 4 hours a day (and every business they use) into a very local little box.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to esc on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 15:00:38
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to Adept on Tue Oct 24 2023 07:24 am

    I _do_ think it's interesting that people who buy EVs tend to continue buying EVs. I suppose that means it's not as prohibitively expens

    People who makes extraordinary (as in, non-ordinary) investments tend to keep justifying or repeating them in the future. It is a known
    psychological effect.

    JUdging by the marketing around here, it is clear to me auto-makers are not counting on people buying electric cars due to finantial
    reasons, but due to ideological reasons.

    --
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Arelor on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 20:35:58
    Also you need to pass TSA-like access controls to board certain trains here. If I am a paying customer I am not gonna consent to that, period.

    That's... not a train problem, though it _is_ interesting how much more things like border controls hit mass transit things than they do with cars, at least in the EU.

    But, yeah, not a fan of that sort of thing.

    Buses still fall so short, though, because you can't count on them being available when you need them. If your shcedules are not flexible you
    many still not be able to take the bus at all.

    When you're a far distance from where anyone would build a train to, it does seem unlikely that a bus would ever pay for itself, either.

    But, yes, trains are for routes that are likely to be congested at some point in the future, which means places with higher density or that are destinations for some reason.

    Since the point is to transport a large quantity of people, frequently, but with enough slack on the edges of schedules that people feel as though they can depend on the infrastructure.

    And, "middle of the country" is not that situation.

    That said, this is reminding me of MonoCab, which is... not a great solution for anything, but _is_ entertaining, since it's meant to be a taxi-like service that's automated, but only takes one side of a train track, so that the vehicles can go both ways at once.

    At which point it'd probably be more reasonable to have tracks going to less-traffic'd areas.

    But I'm not anti-car -- just in favor of designing high-density areas in ways that best use the land. And favoring cars when there's generally no place to park the things just makes for unpleasant cities. Even when they're moving around, it's just so inefficient, for the amount of people in a given area.

    But low-density? That's a different problem.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Arelor on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 20:40:02
    Main reason why services need to be profitable is that they need to be sustainable. Otherwise you will end up hitting a crisis sooner rather
    than later.

    Yeah. I guess it's just kinda weird with roads, since most people expect to be able to get from point A to point B without paying anything for use of the roads, aside from some toll roads (which generally don't pay for themselves, but at least get some revenue).

    And, as you say, it does wind up costing a lot, and there are a variety of places where this has caused problems, with decaying infrastructure that likely should be replaced.

    It's a complicated problem.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to fusion on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 20:45:25
    don't get me wrong.. it was a pleasant way to travel (there at least!)
    .. but imo advocating for trains-only transport pretty much puts
    everyone who doesn't want to commute 4 hours a day (and every business they use) into a very local little box.

    Yeah. I think the general idea is that with a train-centric idea, there's dense housing in the vicinity of the various train stations, and generally a commercial district as well (that can be supported by the more-dense population).

    And, certainly, rental bikes and scooters can solve some problems.

    But having to have big enough roads and large enough parking lots for everyone to live away from a city, but commute in every day... Just leads to a really inefficient city. The amount of cities where it's half parking lots instead of things that generate something more useful...

    But, again, I'm not a trains-only person. Just people first, which tends to change priorities depending on density.

    General idea is to make it so that people _can_ find a way to live a fairly comfortable life without having to drive, whether it's by choice or because they're someone who shouldn't be driving.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Nightfox on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 14:52:05
    I feel like I'm fairly introverted, but if I were working from home for many days in a row, I might feel like it would be refreshing to go out
    and work at a cafe.

    Yeah, I get that. I'm introverted myself but do enjoy people watching from time to time.

    Damn it sounds creepy when I put it that way hehe

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 17:00:09
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to fusion on Wed Oct 25 2023 08:45 pm

    But having to have big enough roads and large enough parking lots for everyone to live away from a city, but commute in every day... Just leads to a really inefficient city. The amount of cities where it's half parking lots instead of things that generate something more useful...

    One thing that I'd say is one of my peeves is having to drive somewhere and having nowhere to park my car at the place. IMO it is something useful - it's a place where people can put their personal transportation when they're not using it. If space is a concern, perhaps a parking garage could be built.

    In my area, I've even seen a few apartment complexes that don't appear to have a parking lot at all. I really doubt nobody who lives there owns a car, and I have to wonder where those who live there and own a car park their car when they're home. It already bothers me that the apartment complex I currently live in charges $35 per month for an assigned parking space. It almost feels like they don't expect residents to have a car, which I think is a bit unreasonable.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to esc on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 17:01:34
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to Nightfox on Wed Oct 25 2023 02:52 pm

    I feel like I'm fairly introverted, but if I were working from home for
    many days in a row, I might feel like it would be refreshing to go out
    and work at a cafe.

    Yeah, I get that. I'm introverted myself but do enjoy people watching from time to time.

    Damn it sounds creepy when I put it that way hehe

    I'm not sure it's really just about the watching, but rather being in a casual environment where people are there and things are happening around me, even if I'm not involved with what's going on. Also, maybe being able to order a coffee or something is cool too. :)

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Nightfox on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 18:57:34
    In my area, I've even seen a few apartment complexes that don't appear
    to have a parking lot at all. I really doubt nobody who lives there

    This reminds me of something completely unrelated but pissed me off nonetheless :P

    I was looking for a new house and there was a gorgeous development. Loved the house. Then, the landlord told us that the HOA said no parking in driveways or on the street at night, you had to park two streets over and parallel park.

    That was such a red flag for me. First, there's no way I would agree to put up with that. No parking in your own driveway?! For what??? Second, this suggests to me that there are other silly HOA things I'd have to put up with.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
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  • From unc0nnected@21:1/172 to Spectre on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 22:08:37
    On a completely seperate note.. our roads a maintained via fuel excise, they're starting to get ready to tax EV's to support the same, on a Km rate of some sort.

    Tacking on to this note, an interesting aspect about EV's is that they typically weight significantly more than ICE cars no? Would this result in more wear and tear on the roads, resulting in more spent on maintaining those roads or is it all a drop in the bucket next to what the big rigs do on a regular basis?

    So how are they planning on implementing that tax? Do they send someone to check on your odometer and then tax you based on the mileage?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Bottomless Abyss BBS * bbs.bottomlessabyss.net (21:1/172)
  • From unc0nnected@21:1/172 to Nightfox on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 22:10:54
    Since home broadband is so fast these days, I wonder how many people *rely* on cafe broadband for fast internet access and spend all day working there?

    Sometimes I feel like I wouldn't mind working from a cafe, especially if
    I had been working from home for a while. However, if I only bought one thing to drink and sat there taking up a seat all day, I'd feel like
    they might not like that. I think they'd rather have seats available
    for other paying customers.

    What I like to do is cafe hop every 2-3 hours. Gives your legs a stretch, alleviates that feeling like you are mooching off their wifi and changes up
    the scenery a bit. In terms of that, there's something psychological where people will be more likely to go in a cafe if it isn't empty, so by you being there taking up a table you might actually increase their business.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Bottomless Abyss BBS * bbs.bottomlessabyss.net (21:1/172)
  • From unc0nnected@21:1/172 to Nightfox on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 22:22:39
    But having to have big enough roads and large enough parking lots for everyone to live away from a city, but commute in every day... Just l to a really inefficient city. The amount of cities where it's half pa

    One thing that I'd say is one of my peeves is having to drive somewhere and having nowhere to park my car at the place. IMO it is something
    In my area, I've even seen a few apartment complexes that don't appear
    to have a parking lot at all. I really doubt nobody who lives there assigned parking space. It almost feels like they don't expect
    residents to have a car, which I think is a bit unreasonable.

    Totally unreasonable in some areas but maybe less unreasonable in others. Montreal, where I live has invested heavily in accommodating a car free life and it's paying off as people ditch the car or just never get one without any net inconvenience as you have bike sharing, car sharing, amazing transit and car rentals for those longer weekend trips. And so a lot of buildings in some parts of town are only providing parking for say 1/2 or 1/3 the population of the building. It saves money, allowing for more affordable housing, win win win.

    Not true for every city but something we see more and more possible in those that have invested in providing for car-free options to get around

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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to unc0nnected on Thursday, October 26, 2023 17:55:00
    Tacking on to this note, an interesting aspect about EV's is that they typically weight significantly more than ICE cars no? Would this result in more wear and tear on the roads, resulting in more spent on

    They also tend to be harder on tyres too.. I suspect the wear and tear on
    roads they're considering are suburban streets where you're not normally
    going to see anything more than maybe an 8ton truck rarely... while the extra weight in the EV on an ongoing basis will contribute significantly more.

    So how are they planning on implementing that tax? Do they send someone to check on your odometer and then tax you based on the mileage?

    I have no idea.. and it gets more interesting... Apparently charging a km
    rate for travel is somehow against our "constitution". No idea how that came about it just popped up in the news, at the same time, I think its 2 or 3 states have been charging said tax already the last couple of years.

    Our registration requirements vary wildly from state to state here, so it'll probably be every man for himself for some time until someone figures out a
    way to make it work. Some require inspections and roadworthys yearly others only on transfer and everything else is just as wacky. If they wanted to
    check the Km's traveled for some it would just be a matter of read the
    odometer at inspection, others I have no idea. A flat charge per vehicle
    would probably be the next thing that they try. Of course that'll penalise
    some and others will get off cheap.

    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 18:15:00
    Yeah. I think the general idea is that with a train-centric idea, there's dense housing in the vicinity of the various train stations, and generally a commercial district as well (that can be supported by the more-dense population).

    We have a wild disconnect between property developers and the portions of government they have to deal with. We've had "mid density" suburbs for want
    of a better description that have no public transport, no shops, no schools
    and only one way out onto a arterial road. Leading to catastrophic bottle necks, and hiddeous commute times.

    "They say" the government said they would do this, and there are plans for
    it. Then come back and discover the plans have been shelved in favour of something else, and point fingers at each other. This covers railway lines, roads, and schools all of which a government funded.

    We've had a dearth of infrastructure spending for pretty much all my life, unless it comes to installing toll ways, even as far as connecting an
    existing freeway to it and then charging for that as well. I've not seen any new rail infrastructure.... ever... sure new rolling stock from time to time, but never a completely new line heading out into some new growth corridor.

    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 18:20:00
    And, certainly, rental bikes and scooters can solve some problems.

    I missed this bit in the last spiel.

    We've had a couple of local councils allow these things to be "trialled".
    Bikes here tend to be losers. They disappear, congregate in weird out of the way locations and get near no serious use.

    Scooters on the other hand, have been involved in a number of single vehicle fatalities. They're not even having to hit another car to kill themselves. There are considerations going on about requiring a license to use one.

    Spec


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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Thursday, October 26, 2023 14:44:29
    In my area, I've even seen a few apartment complexes that don't appear
    to have a parking lot at all. I really doubt nobody who lives there
    owns a car, and I have to wonder where those who live there and own a
    car park their car when they're home. It already bothers me that the apartment complex I currently live in charges $35 per month for an assigned parking space. It almost feels like they don't expect
    residents to have a car, which I think is a bit unreasonable.

    I mean, if a parking garage is the most-profitable use of the land, theoretically a parking garage will spring up. And people will pay extra for the privilege.

    And, if being able to park their car at the apartment complex is worth it to people, then they'll probably pay for it at a different apartment complex that has parking.

    It seems odd to mandate parking if parking isn't profitable. And the point when there isn't a lot of parking around, but there are a lot of people around, then that's the point when oftentimes people don't own a car.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Spectre on Thursday, October 26, 2023 14:55:56
    Scooters on the other hand, have been involved in a number of single vehicle fatalities. They're not even having to hit another car to kill themselves. There are considerations going on about requiring a license
    to use one.

    Aren't they limited to 20kph?

    Which I'm sure is still plenty fast enough to get yourself killed, but I think most people can run that fast for short distances, so it's not _that_ fast.

    Anyway, most of the complaints I've heard about them is just that they wind up being in the way everywhere. And various regulations have made that a bit better, I think, where there are a bunch of areas where people aren't allowed to park them.

    But, yeah, not a perfect solution.

    But, like having space for people to bring their bike on a train, it's a solution for the last-mile aspects of public transit.

    But, yes, absolutely, like all other forms of transit, there are issues.

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to esc on Thursday, October 26, 2023 09:17:48
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to Nightfox on Wed Oct 25 2023 06:57 pm

    I was looking for a new house and there was a gorgeous development. Loved the house. Then, the landlord told us that the HOA said no parking in driveways or on the street at night, you had to park two streets over and parallel park.

    That was such a red flag for me. First, there's no way I would agree to put up with that. No parking in your own driveway?! For what??? Second, this suggests to me that there are other silly HOA things I'd have to put up with.

    That's a bit ridiculous.. But I feel like it begs the question: Do those houses not have garages?

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to unc0nnected on Thursday, October 26, 2023 09:19:08
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: unc0nnected to Nightfox on Wed Oct 25 2023 10:10 pm

    What I like to do is cafe hop every 2-3 hours. Gives your legs a stretch, alleviates that feeling like you are mooching off their wifi and changes up the scenery a bit. In terms of that, there's something psychological where people will be more likely to go in a cafe if it isn't empty, so by you being there taking up a table you might actually increase their business.

    Interesting. Personally, I don't remember ever preferring a particular cafe because it wasn't empty.

    Nightfox
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Thursday, October 26, 2023 06:31:00
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I'd be surprised if folks rely on it, I suspect it's probably just a feature of extroversion - wanting to be around other people and hustle
    and bustle.

    During Covid, a couple of virtual "cafes" popped up - web sites where
    you could share a webcam with people and had music and ambient noise in
    the background.

    I had one of those running on my laptop, had put it to sleep and went to
    a real cafe. It continued playing while I was in the cafe. It was
    delightfully meta.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Thursday, October 26, 2023 06:35:00
    Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    On 24 Oct 2023 at 09:25a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    Buying a range extender was a bridge vehicle for me, a way to test the

    How does this device work? Is it a unit you take with you to plug into your EV to add range?

    It's a 2 cylinder, 650cc engine. It runs a generator that charges the
    battery and is built-in to the car. You can turn it on manually, or
    it'll automatically turn on when the battery gets down to around 6%.

    I've yet to experience that but the Kia brand (I'm guessing the BYD one also) seem to have updates coming out from time to time. I think I may
    be able to download and apply them via USB to the vehicle.

    BMWs have a paid service that includes voice roadside assistance, map
    and software updates and the ability to manage your car from your phone.
    I'm assuming as long as you're paying for the service you're getting
    updates for the software. Definitely the maps.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Thursday, October 26, 2023 06:46:00
    esc wrote to Adept <=-

    But I guess people probably oftentimes didn't even leave their _neighborhoods_, so traveling to the other side of the City could reasonably be a longer trip, I imagine.

    This is my experience with all my SF friends :)

    At my first job, I was living in the outer sunset and commuting to
    an office near Pier 39. It took my longer riding the N Judah and a
    shuttle to the office than people coming in from Walnut Creek!



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Thursday, October 26, 2023 06:55:00
    esc wrote to Adept <=-

    I _do_ think it's interesting that people who buy EVs tend to continue buying EVs. I suppose that means it's not as prohibitively expensive or unreasonable than detractors would have you think!

    As a recent EV buyer, I'm guessing some of it has to do with range
    anxiety and not knowing enough about public ev charging.

    The lack of service needed is nice and the lack of anything to go wrong.

    I'll probably get another EV when this one's turn is up, given that the
    EV charging landscape is improving and so are ranges.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 07:01:00
    Adept wrote to esc <=-

    And ICE cars are... not cheap, either, when getting a new one.

    I'm thinking my next car, if ICE, will be a used Honda or Toyota. They
    last forever.

    My poor Prius, before it was totalled, looked great, had 180K miles on
    it, and was still on its first set of brake pads! There were reports on
    a Prius group I frequented of odometers breaking - apparently they
    would only go to 399K miles, and several people ran into the issue!

    A 3rd gen Prius with a new lithium-ion replacement battery would be
    under $10K and get you decent electronics, a ton of room, and great
    mileage.

    (My other tip for buying used is to have it detailed after buying. I
    bought a 2011 Mazda CX-9 and had the interior detailed. Steam-cleaning
    leather opens the pores of the materials and gets all of the dirt out
    of the leather without damaging it. Shampooing the mats and the carpets
    leaves the car smelling fresh, and the car felt brand new inside.
    Several years later, it feels like a much newer car.)






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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to StormTrooper on Thursday, October 26, 2023 07:02:00
    StormTrooper wrote to esc <=-

    the rub. It'll be the "well off" that generally buy them, are they likely to be able to afford the extra 25% to join electric utopia probably. While for the rest of us plebs its enough to be a deal breaker.

    Tha amount of people paying 3x what I paid for a used EV to drive
    around a SUV or Ford truck would undercut that assumption. I'm
    surrounded by moms driving 1 or 2 kids around in new-ish 7 passenger
    behemoths.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Thursday, October 26, 2023 08:36:00
    esc wrote to StormTrooper <=-

    Agreed about any new car being too costly these days. That said the playing field for ICE vs EV is leveling out. My Fiat 500E cost me $15k.

    Depreciation on EVs is bad for first-buyers, great for us. My 2018 BMW
    i3 was $43K, I picked it up for $18K with 14k miles on it. Almost new.

    In California, PHEVs have a 10 year 150K warranty that covers the
    battery. A 2014 Plug-in Prius with a bad battery would be a good buy if
    you could replace the battery under warranty - the engines are pretty
    solid.

    I think a lot of cars sat around during the covid lockdown; I know I wen
    from 2000 miles a month to around 300, and since my office never opened
    up again, drove a fraction of what I'd done previous to 2020.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to unc0nnected on Thursday, October 26, 2023 08:38:00
    unc0nnected wrote to Adept <=-

    Might compromise on a plugin hybrid for another 2 years and then see
    what advancements in battery tech do for the range in the 2026 models

    The 2024 Prius Prime looks pretty good, I think it gets 52-58 mpg on gas
    and 45 miles on electric.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to unc0nnected on Thursday, October 26, 2023 08:42:00
    unc0nnected wrote to Spectre <=-

    Tacking on to this note, an interesting aspect about EV's is that they typically weight significantly more than ICE cars no? Would this
    result in more wear and tear on the roads, resulting in more spent on maintaining those roads or is it all a drop in the bucket next to what
    the big rigs do on a regular basis?

    Drop in the bucket. I drive interstate 80 up to Donner Summit
    regularly, and the combination of ice, snow and trucks have torn up the
    slow lanes.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Thursday, October 26, 2023 08:56:00
    Spectre wrote to unc0nnected <=-


    They also tend to be harder on tyres too.. I suspect the wear and tear
    on roads they're considering are suburban streets where you're not normally going to see anything more than maybe an 8ton truck rarely... while the extra weight in the EV on an ongoing basis will contribute significantly more.


    A 2014 Corolla weight 2820 pounds, a 2014 Prius 3042, the plug-in Prius
    is 3165. It's not that much of a difference. I drove 180K miles on my
    Prius and didn't notice any exceptional tire wear - I still got 70K
    miles on a set of Michelin Defenders (great tires, BTW) and they still
    had tread left.

    I have no idea.. and it gets more interesting... Apparently charging a
    km rate for travel is somehow against our "constitution".

    There's a guarantee of free travel between states; I wouldn't trust
    that I wouldn't be tracked by a government-mandated device that tracks
    miles in order to tax based on miles driven.

    A bunch of years back, my transit region instituted a FasTrak wireless toll
    system. Swore up and down they were only tracking tolls and didn't use
    them for any other purpose, nor were there any sensors apart from the
    toll sensors.

    A few years later they implemented a traffic app, and people wondered
    where the data was coming from. They fessed up that they had installed
    sensors *everywhere* and were tracking transponders, but there was no
    personal connection.

    We got a nice letter apologizing/not apologizing for violating their
    privacy policy and providing a FREE COMPLIMENTARY anti-static bag to
    keep your transponder in when not paying tolls.

    I guarantee that any mileage-tracking system will be misused.








    No idea how
    that came about it just popped up in the news, at the same time, I
    think its 2 or 3 states have been charging said tax already the last couple of years.

    Our registration requirements vary wildly from state to state here, so it'll probably be every man for himself for some time until someone figures out a way to make it work. Some require inspections and roadworthys yearly others only on transfer and everything else is just
    as wacky. If they wanted to check the Km's traveled for some it would just be a matter of read the odometer at inspection, others I have no idea. A flat charge per vehicle would probably be the next thing that they try. Of course that'll penalise some and others will get off
    cheap.

    Spec


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 09:24:54
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Nightfox on Thu Oct 26 2023 02:44 pm

    In my area, I've even seen a few apartment complexes that don't appear
    to have a parking lot at all. I really doubt nobody who lives there owns
    a car, and I have to wonder where those who live there and own a car park
    their car when they're home. It already bothers me that the apartment
    complex I currently live in charges $35 per month for an assigned parking
    space. It almost feels like they don't expect residents to have a car,
    which I think is a bit unreasonable.

    I mean, if a parking garage is the most-profitable use of the land, theoretically a parking garage will spring up. And people will pay extra for the privilege.

    And, if being able to park their car at the apartment complex is worth it to people, then they'll probably pay for it at a different apartment complex that has parking.

    It seems odd to mandate parking if parking isn't profitable. And the point when there isn't a lot of parking around, but there are a lot of people around, then that's the point when oftentimes people don't own a car.

    I don't really see how it's odd..? In 2010, I moved into a different apartment complex, and that was the first time I ever saw an apartment complex that charged extra for a parking space. Before that, all the apartments I've ever lived at included an assigned parking space as part of your apartment lease. The fact is that people usually have a car to get around, and they need a place to park their car. What seems odd to me is charging extra for a parking space. It's not unusual for people to have a car..

    IF an apartment complex is going to charge extra for an assigned parking space, then maybe they could charge extra for being allowed to use specific walkways within the apartment complex. Or maybe they could charge extra for being able to lock your apartment door. Or maybe they could charge extra for being able to open your windows. Charging extra for normal everyday things can get a bit ridiculous. It reminds me of what I've been hearing about car companies these days wanting to charge a monthly subscription fee to use certain features of the car (I'd heard BMW wanted to charge a subscription to allow using the heated seats - but then I heard they decided not to do that).

    Nightfox
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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Thursday, October 26, 2023 17:24:06
    Interesting. Personally, I don't remember ever preferring a particular cafe because it wasn't empty.

    I think there might have been some cafe that I went past because I thought it was _closed_, but not sure if that's the psychology aspect.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 26, 2023 17:27:23
    At my first job, I was living in the outer sunset and commuting to
    an office near Pier 39. It took my longer riding the N Judah and a
    shuttle to the office than people coming in from Walnut Creek!

    It's also kinda weird, with SF -- it's not _especially_ hilly, if you stick to the outside bits on the east and north. But if you go over the center portions, it's... frightening for someone who's from a cold place and imagines the place with ice.

    So, with biking the city, one tended to learn to take certain routes and not others, because topography matters, there.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 26, 2023 17:36:07
    We got a nice letter apologizing/not apologizing for violating their
    privacy policy and providing a FREE COMPLIMENTARY anti-static bag to
    keep your transponder in when not paying tolls.

    Are anti-static bags inherently Farraday cages? Since I'm assuming that was the point of it, rather than being anti-static. But I had never thought about the connection before.

    I guarantee that any mileage-tracking system will be misused.

    Yeah, the, "we have your information but totally won't use it inappropriately" is never a reassuring thing.

    But the traffic tracking _is_ pretty cool.

    That said, with the mileage-tracking system, I was imagining something more along the lines of, when you get your smog check done, they also write down your current mileage, and you pay accordingly.

    Which, yeah, some of that mileage would not be in the state of registration, but I don't think there's any better usage-based system, at this point.

    And I'm sure that the states vary widely in what sort of annual-ish things they make people do.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Thursday, October 26, 2023 17:59:13
    apartment complex, and that was the first time I ever saw an apartment complex that charged extra for a parking space. Before that, all the

    You had a car, so you paid for a parking space. Someone who doesn't have a car doesn't have to pay for space they're not using. That seems reasonable to me.

    Mind you, it _wouldn't_ make sense to charge separately for a _garage_, because theoretically you could use it as a storage space for things other than cars, regardless.

    of your apartment lease. The fact is that people usually have a car to get around, and they need a place to park their car. What seems odd to
    me is charging extra for a parking space. It's not unusual for people to have a car..

    Of the 18 places I have lived in as an adult (I may have moved around _a lot_, and that number is kinda fuzzy), 7 of them had an obvious, non-street-parking place where I was inherently allowed to store a car.

    And in every one of those cases, I was either in an isolated smaller city or in a suburb.

    The rest of the time was in cities.

    Cars come standard with suburbs and places far away from other places. They don't in cities. Because there's less available land in cities, which means that the economic value of any given thing has to be higher to justify the land usage.

    IF an apartment complex is going to charge extra for an assigned parking space, then maybe they could charge extra for being allowed to use specific walkways within the apartment complex. Or maybe they could charge extra for being able to lock your apartment door. Or maybe they could charge extra for being able to open your windows. Charging extra for normal everyday things can get a bit ridiculous. It reminds me of

    I don't view having exclusive right to a parking spot as a "normal everyday thing" that should be included as part of every apartment.

    But I have spent a lot of time not owning a car.

    But being able to lock the door or open the windows? Have you _ever_ known someone to never use those things?

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 12:40:25
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Nightfox on Thu Oct 26 2023 05:59 pm

    IF an apartment complex is going to charge extra for an assigned parking
    space, then maybe they could charge extra for being allowed to use
    specific walkways within the apartment complex. Or maybe they could
    charge extra for being able to lock your apartment door. Or maybe they
    could charge extra for being able to open your windows. Charging extra
    for normal everyday things can get a bit ridiculous. It reminds me of

    I don't view having exclusive right to a parking spot as a "normal everyday thing" that should be included as part of every apartment.

    But I have spent a lot of time not owning a car.

    But being able to lock the door or open the windows? Have you _ever_ known someone to never use those things?

    Well, that was sort of my point. I know very few poeple who don't own a car (even in the larger city nearby), so it does to me seem like a fairly common everyday thing. But I know different places are different in that regard.

    Nightfox
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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, October 27, 2023 05:03:00
    A 2014 Corolla weight 2820 pounds, a 2014 Prius 3042, the plug-in Prius
    is 3165. It's not that much of a difference. I drove 180K miles on my

    Fiat 500, 954Kg, 500E 1290kg. A lot of these things are getting larger batter y packs for the range anxiety crowd. Thats like driving around with 2-3
    extra people in your car before you put anyone in there...

    Obviously not every car is going to be exactly the same, but the
    corolla/prius isn't exactly comparing apples for apples...

    Prius and didn't notice any exceptional tire wear - I still got 70K
    miles on a set of Michelin Defenders (great tires, BTW) and they still
    had tread left.

    Nice work, I have to freely admit I don't even know what I get out of the
    tyres I'm using.. never measured..

    Spec


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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Adept on Thursday, October 26, 2023 16:43:54
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: Adept to Arelor on Wed Oct 25 2023 08:35 pm

    That's... not a train problem, though it _is_ interesting how much more thin

    It is not a border control. You pick a train from one city to the next, you have your luggagge and belongins scanned etc etc.

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to unc0nnected on Thursday, October 26, 2023 16:51:48
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: unc0nnected to Spectre on Wed Oct 25 2023 10:08 pm

    So how are they planning on implementing that tax? Do they send someone to check on your odometer and then tax you based on the mileage?


    Here, they just try and calculate how much they ought to tax a car of your characteristics and apply a flat annual rate.

    I think their decision on which cars tax the most comes down to non-practical factors, though, but rather they try to take money from people who can pay it.

    If you have a four-wheeled peanut from fifty years ago which pollutes as heck they don t tax you much, because obviously you are poor and you don t have much to take. If you buy an hyperefficient hybrid they tax your guts out because you are obviously capable of spending loads of money.

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  • From unc0nnected@21:1/172 to Nightfox on Thursday, October 26, 2023 20:34:03
    where people will be more likely to go in a cafe if it isn't empty, s

    Interesting. Personally, I don't remember ever preferring a particular cafe because it wasn't empty.

    Agreed, in fact i see it as a bonus, but realized over the years that I might be the exception, not the rule in a lot of cases :)

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Nightfox on Thursday, October 26, 2023 20:46:59
    That's a bit ridiculous.. But I feel like it begs the question: Do those houses not have garages?

    Yes, however tiny garages and no basements. Most Californians tend to use their garage as storage space since there are no basements.

    Nevertheless this was ridiculous and not something I was willing to put up with :P (plus, I have three cars).

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thursday, October 26, 2023 20:50:52
    As a recent EV buyer, I'm guessing some of it has to do with range
    anxiety and not knowing enough about public ev charging.

    Which is totally valid

    The lack of service needed is nice and the lack of anything to go wrong.

    Which is awesome, I concur. My Fiat only requires tires and brakes (and thanks to regen braking, my brakes only engage when I hit 6mph or slam on them, so hypothetically my pads will last forever). I loathe going to car dealerships for service so this is a big plus for me :P

    I'll probably get another EV when this one's turn is up, given that the
    EV charging landscape is improving and so are ranges.

    Yeah, we're going to keep our little around town commuter until it blows up or the batteries die or whatever happens to it lol. After that we'll likely get another small commuter. It's just so easy, you can park it anywhere, it's actually a blast to drive, don't have to pay for gas. Oh, there are unexpected additional benefits, like the air conditioner working immediately. Anywho, yeah, I dig having an EV. But we also have an SUV that is traditional ICE but we need the space since I have to haul lumber and tools and things like that.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Spectre on Thursday, October 26, 2023 20:55:36
    Fiat 500, 954Kg, 500E 1290kg. A lot of these things are getting larger

    I mean, this car is _tiny_, pound for pound it's still one of the lighter cars on the road. Kinda feels like we're splittin hairs here ;)

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  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to Avon on Friday, October 27, 2023 06:43:34
    Over here the government offered a $7000 rebate on an new EV
    purchased... so that has made quite an impact on the uptake and also motivated us to look at making the switch.

    We had similar here for a bit as part of the plan to EV the unwilling population. It did depend on the list price of the vehicle in question though. It was only on new cars and it was ultimately nixed on the basis it wasn't helping anyone that couldn't afford a car to buy one, only subsidising those that already could.

    Our somewhat brain dead poli's can't make up their minds.

    Certainly not saying the whole EV thing is for everyone but for folks

    I can see there are going to be segments where it makes sense. On close inspection it doesn't appear to be the panacea that the electric utopians would have you believe though. City, for cleaner local air, in smaller vehicles for shorter convenience drives. These appear to be things they do well.

    ST

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  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, October 27, 2023 06:51:01
    Tha amount of people paying 3x what I paid for a used EV to drive
    around a SUV or Ford truck would undercut that assumption. I'm
    surrounded by moms driving 1 or 2 kids around in new-ish 7 passenger
    behemoths.

    Shrug. The arse tends to fall out of EV prices faster due to battery longevity concerns. Newish? It's still probably already depreciated some ~40% from new.

    The type of vehicle is going to be horses for courses... I happen to have one of those horrible 7 seater beasts... I have it not because I fill it with people on a daily basis, but because if I have to move the whole family in one go it's the only way without taking 2 vehicles. On the flip side the thing I have is only a 4cyl powered job.

    ST

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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Friday, October 27, 2023 16:18:00
    Aren't they limited to 20kph?

    Hmm we have odd laws... yes they're limited to 20Kph and the commercial hire ones probably are, but you can go as fast as 25kph and remain somewhat legal
    it looks like a weird grey area. Over 25Kph and its definitely illegal.

    The bulk of local fatalities have been head injuries (cue Midnight Oil). Usually younger people, some wrapped around street sign posts, some sliding into gutters... 20Kph is roughly double the accepted running speed for a human. As always its not the speed that kills its the sudden stop.

    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Friday, October 27, 2023 16:21:00
    Are anti-static bags inherently Farraday cages? Since I'm assuming that was the point of it, rather than being anti-static. But I had never thought about the connection before.

    Assuming its the metallic looking ones, they're metal coated and conductive.
    In themselves probably not much of a "Farraday Cage" without grounding it to something to sink whatever energy they pick up.

    Spec


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to esc on Friday, October 27, 2023 16:32:00
    Fiat 500, 954Kg, 500E 1290kg. A lot of these things are getting larger

    I mean, this car is _tiny_, pound for pound it's still one of the lighter cars on the road. Kinda feels like we're splittin hairs here ;)

    I used that because it was handy I can find those figures. Batteries do not scale well though, the big electric shitter that's going up against your Ford Ranger or something is going to weigh proportionally more. You need "tons"
    of extra battery to carry not only the extra heft of the vehicle, but the
    extra heft of the battery required to move the thing in the first place.

    The example given, big small or indifferent is ~25% that's not a hair
    splitting fraction to add. You add 25% to something in the order of 2 tons...

    Spec


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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Arelor on Friday, October 27, 2023 13:13:44
    That's... not a train problem, though it _is_ interesting how much more
    It is not a border control. You pick a train from one city to the next, you have your luggagge and belongins scanned etc etc.

    Ah, okay. Seems reasonable enough for a way of not having to watch your own luggage, but, yeah, I'm fine with the German method of just having space for luggage.

    But I suppose, like the US's security theater response to 9/11, Spain had a security-theater response to 3/11. (Or 11/3, presumably, given that it's Europe)

    Hopefully less invasive than the US version, but, yeah, I could see that as being highly annoying.

    And, as much as I'd like greater safety, I don't think there's a lot of data that says these things do much of value.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Spectre on Friday, October 27, 2023 13:23:24
    sliding into gutters... 20Kph is roughly double the accepted running speed for a human. As always its not the speed that kills its the

    Nah, I meant sprint speed, when I said, "running speed".

    And top-level marathon runners average over 20kph for the entire distance.

    The bulk of local fatalities have been head injuries (cue Midnight Oil). Usually younger people, some wrapped around street sign posts, some

    Yeah. Basically, it's easier to make fatal mistakes while being drunk and acting stupidly on a scooter than being drunk and acting stupidly not on a scooter.

    Though I'm sure plenty of people have died while sober, and the dangers are why commercial scooter things mention how people should wear a helmet.

    But I'm probably more scared of cars when on a scooter than I am of going 20kph, even though I'm sure it's a non-zero risk of death. All assuming I'm not wearing a helmet, because I'm unlikely to carry one around with me for these type of things.

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Spectre on Friday, October 27, 2023 13:28:53
    Assuming its the metallic looking ones, they're metal coated and conductive. In themselves probably not much of a "Farraday Cage" without grounding it to something to sink whatever energy they pick up.

    I guess it would be a Farraday bag, in this case, and I'm thinking the grounding requirements would be met by the air and/or whatever is touching them, since it's not like the radio waves being blocked require high energy.

    Though I'm still wondering how well the "anti-static bags" work for blocking the signal.

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to esc on Friday, October 27, 2023 08:52:38
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: esc to Nightfox on Thu Oct 26 2023 08:46 pm

    That's a bit ridiculous.. But I feel like it begs the question: Do those
    houses not have garages?

    Yes, however tiny garages and no basements. Most Californians tend to use their garage as storage space since there are no basements.

    Houses where I am tend not to have basements either. I see some people parking their cars on the driveway, though I might be tempted to buy a shed or something for the back yard to use for storage so that I could park my car in the garage.

    Nightfox
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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Adept on Saturday, October 28, 2023 23:04:00
    I guess it would be a Farraday bag, in this case, and I'm thinking the grounding requirements would be met by the air and/or whatever is touching them, since it's not like the radio waves being blocked require high energy.

    Guess its going to depend on the frequency attenuation, how much the
    metallised film will hold, and how much leakage you get thereafter. But short of trying it, no idea.

    Spec


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Saturday, October 28, 2023 08:34:00
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    It's also kinda weird, with SF -- it's not _especially_ hilly, if you stick to the outside bits on the east and north. But if you go over the center portions, it's... frightening for someone who's from a cold
    place and imagines the place with ice.

    I could see how it would be
    in the back of your mind if you grew up with it. I hate driving up to
    Lake Tahoe at night, when the temp gets below 32 I imagine black ice on
    all of the bridges (which ice up first).

    I lived in an area we called Baja Pacific Heights, and I used to run up
    the hill and back down to the Marina, down through Golden Gate Park to
    the beach, and over the hill and across the Golden Gate Bridge into
    Sausalito. I got used to hills.

    I ran one of my usual routes with a friend who ran on the flats in the
    peninsula and he was out of gas at the first hill - didn't realize how
    hilly SF was until he ran it!




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Adept on Saturday, October 28, 2023 08:38:00
    Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Are anti-static bags inherently Farraday cages? Since I'm assuming that was the point of it, rather than being anti-static. But I had never thought about the connection before.

    The transponder would go beep beep when you went through the toll booth,
    but no beeps when in the bag. That's as far as I researched it. :)


    That said, with the mileage-tracking system, I was imagining something more along the lines of, when you get your smog check done, they also write down your current mileage, and you pay accordingly.


    Oh, no - they wanted some sort of tamper-proof transponder mounted in
    the car. Real-time location data with no consequences for misuse.




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Saturday, October 28, 2023 08:42:00
    Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    A 2014 Corolla weight 2820 pounds, a 2014 Prius 3042, the plug-in Prius
    is 3165. It's not that much of a difference. I drove 180K miles on my

    Fiat 500, 954Kg, 500E 1290kg. A lot of these things are getting larger batter y packs for the range anxiety crowd. Thats like driving around with 2-3 extra people in your car before you put anyone in there...

    Yeah, but the 500e is a full EV. The original poster was talking about
    hybrids, if memory serves. Much smaller batteries, but they have a gas
    engine and an electric motor.

    I'd think the lower weight of the electric motor compared to a gas
    engine would reduce the weight gain.

    Prius and didn't notice any exceptional tire wear - I still got 70K
    miles on a set of Michelin Defenders (great tires, BTW) and they still
    had tread left.

    Nice work, I have to freely admit I don't even know what I get out of
    the tyres I'm using.. never measured..

    I became a Tire Nerd when I had my Prius. Back in 2014, low
    rolling-resistance tires were all the rage, and all the manufacturers
    were competing with alternate compounds and designs to get more mpg out
    of cars. That seems to have mostly subsided in marketing.

    The Defenders gave up 1-2 mpg compared to LRR tires, but they were
    better than most non-LRR tires, had great wet traction, and lasted
    twice as long as LRR tires. I figured that made the MPG penalty a wash,
    and felt much more safe in the rain than an intentionally slippery
    tire.









    Spec


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Saturday, October 28, 2023 08:47:00
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Which is awesome, I concur. My Fiat only requires tires and brakes (and thanks to regen braking, my brakes only engage when I hit 6mph or slam
    on them, so hypothetically my pads will last forever). I loathe going
    to car dealerships for service so this is a big plus for me :P


    Regen braking rocks. My Prius was at 183K miles on the original pads!


    Yeah, we're going to keep our little around town commuter until it
    blows up or the batteries die or whatever happens to it lol. After that we'll likely get another small commuter. It's just so easy, you can
    park it anywhere, it's actually a blast to drive, don't have to pay for gas. Oh, there are unexpected additional benefits, like the air conditioner working immediately. Anywho, yeah, I dig having an EV. But
    we also have an SUV that is traditional ICE but we need the space since
    I have to haul lumber and tools and things like that.

    Yes to all of the above with my i3. I figure with an EV plan through
    PG&E I'm still saving money compared to what I paid in gas plus
    occasionally charging my Prius without a plan. And, now that we've
    gotten in the habit of running the washing machine and dishwasher
    off-peak, we're saving more that way, too.

    I got my car as a city car, for trips around town and occasional trips
    to Santa Cruz and San Jose. I'm tempted to try it on longer trips -
    almost took it to Donner Summit yesterday but chose against it.

    Paso Robles/Cambria is certainly in range - and I know of a couple of
    inns with charging stations.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to StormTrooper on Saturday, October 28, 2023 08:50:00
    StormTrooper wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Shrug. The arse tends to fall out of EV prices faster due to battery longevity concerns. Newish? It's still probably already depreciated
    some ~40% from new.

    Mine depreciated 59 percent in 5 years. Good for me, bad for the seller. Battery still shows 99% capacity.

    The type of vehicle is going to be horses for courses... I happen to
    have one of those horrible 7 seater beasts... I have it not because I
    fill it with people on a daily basis, but because if I have to move the whole family in one go it's the only way without taking 2 vehicles. On the flip side the thing I have is only a 4cyl powered job.

    Yeah, I complain about behemoth cars in car parks and school pickup
    lines, but it's usually when I know they're a 2 SUV family. :)

    We have one small car that gets good mileage for local trips and parent
    getaways, Craigslist hauls, and a SUV for when we have 4+ people or
    long family trips with dogs.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, October 28, 2023 09:00:00
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to unc0nnected <=-

    Drop in the bucket. I drive interstate 80 up to Donner Summit
    regularly, and the combination of ice, snow and trucks have torn up
    the slow lanes.

    Replying to myself: I took that drive yesterday, and the slow lane is
    nit just rougher, but in some parts has literal depressions/ruts in the
    roadway the width of 18-wheeler tires.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Saturday, October 28, 2023 09:02:00
    Nightfox wrote to esc <=-

    That's a bit ridiculous.. But I feel like it begs the question: Do
    those houses not have garages?

    Since I married, I've never been able to fit my car into any of the
    garages we've had.

    My new house doesn't have a garage! We have a covered carport and an
    internal storage room that runs the width of the house. It's a much
    nicer arrangement.



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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Saturday, October 28, 2023 16:24:36
    Re: Re: EVs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sat Oct 28 2023 09:02 am

    That's a bit ridiculous.. But I feel like it begs the question: Do those
    houses not have garages?

    Since I married, I've never been able to fit my car into any of the garages we've had.

    I had a house from 2015 to 2020, and although it said it had a 2-car garage, it seemed like it wasn't quite big enough for 2 cars.

    My new house doesn't have a garage! We have a covered carport and an internal storage room that runs the width of the house. It's a much nicer arrangement.

    When I was growing up, we had a house with a covered carport, but no storage room, though it did have a basement. It was an older house, built in the 1940s.. Basements aren't very common with newer houses here, for some reason.

    Nightfox
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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, October 29, 2023 09:49:00
    Yeah, but the 500e is a full EV. The original poster was talking about hybrids, if memory serves. Much smaller batteries, but they have a gas engine and an electric motor.

    In most cases here hybrids appear to be fading away... let me find a weird alternative that comes to mind...

    Camry ~1470-1610kg Camry Hybrid 1655kg no idea why there's such a variance
    for infernal combustion.. possible capacity, and other options, I suppose.

    I decided the camry was odd, because they seem to have become the volvo with the bowls hat on the rear shelf of the 2020s... bloody camry drivers :)

    Spec


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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to StormTrooper on Sunday, October 29, 2023 17:51:13
    On 27 Oct 2023 at 06:43a, StormTrooper pondered and said...

    We had similar here for a bit as part of the plan to EV the unwilling population. It did depend on the list price of the vehicle in question though. It was only on new cars and it was ultimately nixed on the basis it wasn't helping anyone that couldn't afford a car to buy one, only subsidising those that already could.

    This is also happening here, the incoming government is looking to end the scheme. The scheme as it stands only applied to EV's under 80k in value and then depended on if they were fully electric or PHEV etc.. so the rebate amounts did vary a bit.

    Our somewhat brain dead poli's can't make up their minds.

    Ours seems set to change dependant upon who is in power for each three year term <--- my best guess.

    I can see there are going to be segments where it makes sense. On close inspection it doesn't appear to be the panacea that the electric
    utopians would have you believe though. City, for cleaner local air, in smaller vehicles for shorter convenience drives. These appear to be
    things they do well.

    Yep I think EVs are part of the solutions mix but not the total solution to any broader issues..

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sunday, October 29, 2023 16:05:40
    Are anti-static bags inherently Farraday cages? Since I'm assuming th was the point of it, rather than being anti-static. But I had never thought about the connection before.

    The transponder would go beep beep when you went through the toll booth, but no beeps when in the bag. That's as far as I researched it. :)

    That's probably enough to count for this, then.

    I mean, there could be enough signal leakage, but weak enough to communicate in one direction or the other.

    That said, with the mileage-tracking system, I was imagining somethin more along the lines of, when you get your smog check done, they also write down your current mileage, and you pay accordingly.

    Oh, no - they wanted some sort of tamper-proof transponder mounted in
    the car. Real-time location data with no consequences for misuse.

    Yeah...

    I guess, at this point, we're basically all under constant surveillance due to carrying a phone around, but somehow something mandatory like that just sounds... bad.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Sunday, October 29, 2023 11:30:00
    Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-


    Camry ~1470-1610kg Camry Hybrid 1655kg no idea why there's such a variance for infernal combustion.. possible capacity, and other
    options, I suppose.

    Batteries. They're heavy.

    I decided the camry was odd, because they seem to have become the volvo with the bowls hat on the rear shelf of the 2020s... bloody camry
    drivers :)

    Around here, Camry's are stereotypically driven by Asian grandmothers
    with a decoration hanging from the rear view mirror and kleenex box in
    the back shelf.

    I never understood the kleenex box thing. It's as far as it can be to
    maximize inconvenience.

    I drove a 2002 Camry in gold, and heard all the jokes about them. Then,
    one day, I was driving to a consulting gig in San Francisco. I was
    driving on Pacific through chinatown and came to a 4 way stop.

    3 gold Camrys.
    3 Asian grandmothers.
    3 chinese lantern ornaments hanging from rear view mirrors.
    and me.




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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, October 30, 2023 13:55:00
    Camry ~1470-1610kg Camry Hybrid 1655kg no idea why there's such a variance for infernal combustion.. possible capacity, and other

    Batteries. They're heavy.

    Granted and its the bulk of the extra weight in EVs but I don't quite get why there's a ~250Kg variation in the infernal combustion versions over the fixed 1655kg for the Hybrid...

    Spec


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Spectre on Monday, October 30, 2023 06:33:00
    Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Camry ~1470-1610kg Camry Hybrid 1655kg no idea why there's such a variance for infernal combustion.. possible capacity, and other

    Batteries. They're heavy.

    Granted and its the bulk of the extra weight in EVs but I don't quite
    get why there's a ~250Kg variation in the infernal combustion versions over the fixed 1655kg for the Hybrid...

    Oh, I see what you're asking now. Camrys come with a 4 or 6 cylinder
    engine. Maybe that's the difference?



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  • From dotslash@21:2/152 to Avon on Saturday, November 04, 2023 02:20:31
    Hi Avon!

    Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-


    At this stage we're getting a couple of vehicles. An EV6 and a BYD Dolphin.

    We're still waiting for the BYD Dolphin here in the UK. A good buy with the
    Kia EV6, that is an awesome car with a great range. Well chosen in both cases. I have bought myself a 2nd-hand 2014 model Nissan Leaf Tekna with a 24kWh battery, which is a fun city car. Silly cheap to run on cheap rate between 00:30-04:30 - I spend on average about A£30 (approx $40 US) per month on electricity for the commute I make, which is about 10% of what I had to spend monthly on my "economical" Seat Leon 1.6 TDI.

    I've arranged one with our current retail supplier and will have better kWh rates from 9pm to 7am.

    If you have some static batteries (e.g. Tesla Powerwall) at your house, this would also be the best time to charge them so you have cheap power during
    your peak.

    Tomorrow we have someone coming to install a Wallbox unit. I'll be shutting down 1/100 and 1/10 HUBs over that time while the sparky does
    his thing. I have posted an update in FSX_NET about that outage. :)

    Yes it's a brave new world for us but I'm looking forward to being part
    of it.

    Welcome to EVlution!



    Regards,
    Jan Henkins

    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: UnderZaNet BBS (21:2/152)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to dotslash on Saturday, November 04, 2023 20:49:03
    On 04 Nov 2023 at 02:20a, dotslash pondered and said...

    We're still waiting for the BYD Dolphin here in the UK. A good buy with the Kia EV6, that is an awesome car with a great range. Well chosen in both cases. I have bought myself a 2nd-hand 2014 model Nissan Leaf Tekna

    Thanks :)

    Yes the Dolphin is new to both Australia and New Zealand markets, there's about 200-ish Dolphins registered in New Zealand now and they have only been on the roads for about 2 months at best.

    Things I like about the BYD Dolphin are it's battery tech, the general level of safety tech and other fit out that comes with car for the $$ you pay. We're finding some of the safety features rather aggressive when they kick in such as lane keeping assist. But you can disable them before you drive but each start up of the vehicle you need to do it again (and again) if you want to have the car set up the way the driver wants it.

    There's been one over the air update so far and we've had the car just a few weeks, so perhaps in time they will make some of those settings less aggressive and more 'sticky' so you don't have to turn them on/off before each drive.

    EV6 has been nice to drive, I'm charging it up to 80% as the battery tech seems to be such that it's kinder to the battery to run it between 20% - 80% most of the time. It's got plenty of zip especially in Sport mode. I may have used this mode a few times now :)

    If you have some static batteries (e.g. Tesla Powerwall) at your house, this would also be the best time to charge them so you have cheap power during your peak.

    No nothing, but it has got me thinking. The Tesla Powerwall is available in my country but I have not looked at costs, install etc. of it... I think for now we've got to get our heads around the vehicles and slip into a normal groove of use/charging etc. of them first.

    Tomorrow we have someone coming to install a Wallbox unit. I'll be

    Welcome to EVlution!

    Thanks, got the Wallbox sorted and the installer did a tidy job, have used it twice now and so far no issues. :)

    Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)