• Farce V2.00

    From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to All on Monday, October 23, 2017 14:57:58
    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in that election and
    has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is a
    nono to me.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 09:41:32
    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling himself
    "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in that election an
    has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is
    nono to me.

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked him about it yet.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 15:45:02
    Hello Ward!

    Oct 23 14:57 2017, Ward Dossche wrote to All:

    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in that election and has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is a nono to me.

    It's a little bit too late for that sudden inspiration. If the ZCs prefer an election coordinator not involved with the FTSC, they should have taken care about that earlier.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 10:20:20

    On 2017 Oct 23 14:57:58, you wrote to All:

    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in that
    election
    and has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is a nono to me.

    exactly... this has been done several times in the past, as well... wasn't there something about "too many hats"?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... And you win an ancient data disk labeled "1000 Free Hours of AOL"!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Markus Reschke on Monday, October 23, 2017 10:37:20

    On 2017 Oct 23 15:45:02, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling
    himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in
    that election and has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the
    open, is a nono to me.

    It's a little bit too late for that sudden inspiration. If the ZCs
    prefer an election coordinator not involved with the FTSC, they should have taken care about that earlier.

    it is not eh ZC's place to do that... the rules and format were drawn up by the
    FTSC years ago... it was never envisioned that one person would be the chairperson for so long as well as having a seat on the committee...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Abstinence is a good thing when practiced in moderation.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Bob Seaborn@1:140/12 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 10:28:01
    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling
    himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in
    that election and has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the
    open, is a nono to me.


    mighawd, for once I agree with you. Be still my heart. :)

    --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50
    * Origin: RC17 (email to rc17@fidonet.ca) (1:140/12)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to mark lewis on Monday, October 23, 2017 19:36:02
    Hello mark!

    23 Oct 17 10:37, mark lewis wrote to Markus Reschke:


    it is not eh ZC's place to do that... the rules and format were drawn
    up by the FTSC years ago... it was never envisioned that one person
    would be the chairperson for so long as well as having a seat on the committee...

    So is there is nothing in rules prohibiting this. Who knows if this was "never envisioned" or "deliberately made possible"? And who cares? If it is not prohibited, that's the way it is.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: Ideas of lust and dying (2:240/12)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 19:41:14
    Hello Ward!

    23 Oct 17 14:57, Ward Dossche wrote to All:


    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is a nono to me.

    The right to be elected is a highly valued good. Why would you make someone let
    go of it, just because he is taking part in running the election? None of the election schemes I know of prohibits this.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: We are a nation of innovations (2:240/12)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Janis Kracht on Monday, October 23, 2017 16:46:28
    Janis,

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the
    open, is a nono to me.

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked him about it yet.

    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Markus Reschke on Monday, October 23, 2017 18:23:48
    My dear Markus,

    It's a little bit too late for that sudden inspiration. If the ZCs prefer an election coordinator not involved with the FTSC, they should have
    taken care about that earlier.

    WTF are you dragging the ZCs into this...

    Am I not allowed to have an individual sysop's opinion and voice it?

    I would say it's a matter of intellectual honesty to step back if someone else wants to do it, as suggested by Janis ... who also happens to be an individual sysop with an opinion ...

    Further, it's not the ZCs role to "take care of the FTSC".

    Further, the first indication of an "Election Coordinator" posing as an election coordinator was at 11:38:36 today.

    I reacted at 14:50:28m that's within 3hrs 11mins 52secs ... hardly a timeframe worth mentioning and labeling as "It's a little bit too late for that sudden inspiration".

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gerrit Kuehn on Monday, October 23, 2017 20:35:16
    Gerrit,

    The right to be elected is a highly valued good. Why would you make
    someone let go of it, just because he is taking part in running the election? None of the election schemes I know of prohibits this.

    It is my opinion that if you are running an election in which you may be required to rule upon complaints or objections involving yourself as a participant, you should be either a participant or the election coordinator, but not both.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 21:07:14
    Hello Ward!

    23 Oct 17 20:35, Ward Dossche wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    It is my opinion

    I see.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: And still they come and go (2:240/12)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to mark lewis on Monday, October 23, 2017 22:22:22
    Good ${greeting_time}, mark!

    23 Oct 2017 10:20:20, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.
    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in
    the open, is a nono to me.
    exactly... this has been done several times in the past, as well...
    wasn't there something about "too many hats"?

    There really was something. However, if we'd force all people carrying the *C hats to resign from FTSC, it would be approx. twice smaller...

    Or, well... those people may resign from their *C positions, but at least for some of them that would mean their networks, or even regions, will be dropped from the nodelist.

    What would you prefer?


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

    ... :wq!
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 21:20:22
    Hi Ward!

    Oct 23 18:23 2017, Ward Dossche wrote to Markus Reschke:

    It's a little bit too late for that sudden inspiration. If the ZCs
    prefer an election coordinator not involved with the FTSC, they should
    have taken care about that earlier.

    WTF are you dragging the ZCs into this...

    Am I not allowed to have an individual sysop's opinion and voice it?

    Of course you may voice your opinion, as everyone else. So did I ;)

    I would say it's a matter of intellectual honesty to step back if
    someone else wants to do it, as suggested by Janis ... who also
    happens to be an individual sysop with an opinion ...

    If someone would like to be the election coordinator, it would be helpful if that would have been discussed before the election. Don't you agree? The problem is that there aren't many sysops left who want to wear any hat at all. So it's no surprise some are wearing multiple hats (or have to). If you can motivate other sysops, that would be great. But complaining about the current situation doesn't help and won't change anything.

    Further, it's not the ZCs role to "take care of the FTSC".

    That's not what I've meant. I was talking about suggesting an election coordinator before the election.

    Further, the first indication of an "Election Coordinator" posing as
    an election coordinator was at 11:38:36 today.

    I reacted at 14:50:28m that's within 3hrs 11mins 52secs ... hardly a timeframe worth mentioning and labeling as "It's a little bit too
    late for that sudden inspiration".

    I thought you're aware of the yearly recurring election process.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Ward Dossche on Monday, October 23, 2017 16:10:12
    Hi Ward,

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the
    open, is a nono to me.

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked him
    about it yet.

    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    So do I. I like the idea of some freshness in the process.

    Take care,
    Janis

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Janis Kracht on Monday, October 23, 2017 17:10:36
    On 23 Oct 17 09:41:32, Janis Kracht said the following to Ward Dossche:

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked him ab it yet.

    I wholeheartedly second that nomination.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Bob Seaborn@1:140/12 to Janis Kracht on Monday, October 23, 2017 17:10:00
    Hi Ward,

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in
    open, is a nono to me.

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked
    about it yet.

    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    So do I. I like the idea of some freshness in the process.


    And an appearance of fairness and honesty!





    .....Bob

    --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50
    * Origin: RC17 (email to rc17@fidonet.ca) (1:140/12)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Nick Andre on Monday, October 23, 2017 23:21:10
    On 23 Oct 17 09:41:32, Janis Kracht said the following to Ward Dossche:

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked him ab >> it yet.

    I wholeheartedly second that nomination.

    Thanks Nick, I'll definitely contact him. Can't hurt to ask. :)

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From Janis Kracht@1:261/38 to Bob Seaborn on Monday, October 23, 2017 23:21:50
    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked
    about it yet.

    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    So do I. I like the idea of some freshness in the process.


    And an appearance of fairness and honesty!

    Agreed there :)

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
    * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gerrit Kuehn on Monday, October 23, 2017 22:17:54

    On 2017 Oct 23 19:36:02, you wrote to me:

    it is not eh ZC's place to do that... the rules and format were drawn
    up by the FTSC years ago... it was never envisioned that one person
    would be the chairperson for so long as well as having a seat on the
    committee...

    So is there is nothing in rules prohibiting this.

    ORLY? you've read them and followed the discussion about them when they were written?

    Who knows if this was "never envisioned" or "deliberately made
    possible"?

    you don't know the history... some of us were actually there... watching from the sidelines, at least...

    And who cares?

    apparently someone does...

    If it is not prohibited, that's the way it is.

    yeah, no...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I received a Nobel Prize for my chili.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Bob Seaborn on Tuesday, October 24, 2017 09:09:26
    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    So do I. I like the idea of some freshness in the process.

    And an appearance of fairness and honesty!

    This is bad ... real baaaaad ... I'm agreeing here ... need more alcohol, it'll
    go away. Hopefully. 8-)

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Bob Seaborn@1:140/12 to Ward Dossche on Tuesday, October 24, 2017 10:19:00
    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    So do I. I like the idea of some freshness in the process.

    And an appearance of fairness and honesty!

    This is bad ... real baaaaad ... I'm agreeing here ... need more
    alcohol, it'll go away. Hopefully. 8-)


    A real earthshaking shocker! Ward and Bob actually publicly agreeing on something.


    Amazing.

    --- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50
    * Origin: RC17 (email to rc17@fidonet.ca) (1:140/12)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to mark lewis on Tuesday, October 24, 2017 18:58:04
    Hello mark!

    23 Oct 17 22:17, mark lewis wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:


    If it is not prohibited, that's the way it is.

    yeah, no...

    What do you intend to say? Maybe?


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: And the pastiche we've invented (2:240/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 09:41:20
    This is bad ... real baaaaad ... I'm agreeing here ... need more
    alcohol, it'll go away. Hopefully. 8-)

    What are you actually trying to accomplish with this campaign of yours?

    The FTSC elections have never been anything but a symbolic election, where we hope to get as many still active fido participants as possible to work together to try to keep our diminishing network held together.

    Do you seriously think that another Election Coordinator would make any difference to fidonet and it's future?

    Have you any idea about how much work Michiel has put into this for the last
    decade? I have a slight clue, since Michiel has always put the information of the yearly election into the Fidonews.

    I think that a lot of you should be ashamed! Voices from the Peanut Gallery are all to familiar, and we all know how valuable they are... :(

    In the voice from GoT S05E10. Shame. Shame. Shame.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:30:52
    This is bad ... real baaaaad ... I'm agreeing here ... need more
    alcohol, it'll go away. Hopefully. 8-)

    What are you actually trying to accomplish with this campaign of
    yours?

    A campaign? You want me to start a campaign? Really?

    This was just the voicing of an individual participant's opinion.

    It is absolutely improper to run an election, participate in it as a candidate and be the judge of any potential complaint/objection that might involve oneself.

    A particular person's achievements are not swept under the table, merely the procedures involving this election. You want to sweep "that" under the table?

    Take care,

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 14:25:24
    It is absolutely improper to run an election, participate in it as a candidate and be the judge of any potential complaint/objection that
    might involve oneself.

    Not here:

    FTA-1002, par 3.1.4 (Responsibilities of the FTSC administrator)

    4. Coordinating all membership nominations and voting.




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 14:57:07
    Not here:

    FTA-1002, par 3.1.4 (Responsibilities of the FTSC administrator)

    Ahaaaa ... yet another title besides RC, 'Chairman', 'Election Coordinator', 'moderator' ... now 'administrator'.

    4. Coordinating all membership nominations and voting.

    Sure ... it would have been proper to seek-out 2 individuals to run that election and that would perfectly satisfy the above statement.

    It's a clear case now of judge, jury and executioner while accepting the role of participant/victim/accused too.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 15:55:50
    Good ${greeting_time}, Björn!

    25 Oct 2017 14:25:24, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    It is absolutely improper to run an election, participate in it as
    a candidate and be the judge of any potential complaint/objection
    that might involve oneself.
    Not here:
    FTA-1002, par 3.1.4 (Responsibilities of the FTSC administrator)
    4. Coordinating all membership nominations and voting.

    Yes - "coordinating".

    So, the FTSC administrator may delegate these duties to someone else.


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

    ... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 16:24:38
    Hi Ward!

    Oct 25 14:57 2017, Ward Dossche wrote to Bj÷rn Felten:

    4. Coordinating all membership nominations and voting.

    Sure ... it would have been proper to seek-out 2 individuals to run
    that election and that would perfectly satisfy the above statement.

    We can try to find two election coordinators for the next FTSC election. This year's election has already started.

    It's a clear case now of judge, jury and executioner while accepting
    the role of participant/victim/accused too.

    Quite efficient ;) I wonder what you'd say about a RC insulting a node and the insulted node filing a complaint as response (just as a case study). Another conflict of interests? I'm not saying that I'm happy with all those "design" issues. Unless we can motivate more nodes to wear a hat and update our rules, we won't change anything. So it's just flogging a dead horse for personal amusement?

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Markus Reschke on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 17:52:13
    Markus,

    We can try to find two election coordinators for the next FTSC election. This year's election has already started.

    The election-rules/time-table was also published after the so-called start of this election. It's still time to do the honourable thing.

    Quite efficient ;) I wonder what you'd say about a RC insulting a node
    and the insulted node filing a complaint as response (just as a case study). Another conflict of interests?

    I would say that your understanding of P4 is flawed ... it's quite simple and not worthy of a case-study as the matter is verbatim dealt with in P4...

    **************************************************************************** 9.4 Problems with Other Coordinators

    Complaints concerning annoying behavior on the part of any coordinator are treated as in section 9.2 and should be filed with the next level of coordi- nator. For example, if you feel that your Regional Coordinator is guilty of annoying behavior (as opposed to a failure to perform duties as a coordina- tor) you should file your complaint with the Zone Coordinator. ****************************************************************************

    The complaint would be filed with the ZC directly by the offended node as it is
    not a case of "...failure to perform duties as a coordinator".

    Unless we can motivate more nodes to wear a
    hat and update our rules, we won't change anything. So it's just flogging
    a dead horse for personal amusement?

    Is that a question or a statement ?

    Has it even occured to you that I cannot file formal complaints ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Gerrit Kuehn@2:240/12 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 18:02:06
    Hello Ward!

    25 Oct 17 11:30, Ward Dossche wrote to Bj÷rn Felten:


    It is absolutely improper to run an election, participate in it as a candidate and be the judge of any potential complaint/objection that might involve oneself.

    Just as a reminder: This is your opinion, nothing "absolute". And this is perfectly legal in many election rules, not only in this context.


    Regards,
    Gerrit

    --- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
    * Origin: A true lie to believe (2:240/12)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 18:25:42
    Hi Ward!

    Oct 25 17:52 2017, Ward Dossche wrote to Markus Reschke:

    Quite efficient ;) I wonder what you'd say about a RC insulting a
    node and the insulted node filing a complaint as response (just as a
    case study). Another conflict of interests?

    I would say that your understanding of P4 is flawed ... it's quite
    simple and not worthy of a case-study as the matter is verbatim dealt with in P4...

    Sorry, actually I wanted to write "ZC".

    hat and update our rules, we won't change anything. So it's just
    flogging a dead horse for personal amusement?

    Is that a question or a statement ?

    Both ;)

    Has it even occured to you that I cannot file formal complaints ?

    Another design issue.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 17:59:42
    Hello Ward and others,

    23 Oct 17 14:57, you wrote to All:

    It just occured to me the person who wields the sword here calling himself "Election Coordinator" has been nominated as a participant in that election and has accepted that nomination.

    I think someone else needs to be promoted to Election Coordinator.

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in the open, is a nono to me.

    How many years has this Election coordinator been in function for this
    task. How many times was this Election coordinator up for reelection.

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    What is the real farce, this recurring documented process, or this sudden
    indignation about the process?

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Markus Reschke on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 21:03:46
    Markus,

    Has it even occured to you that I cannot file formal complaints ?

    Another design issue.

    Not really, caused by the simple fact that there's no IC. Though it's been a long time I felt as if I wanted to file a formal complaint.

    Life wasn't meant to be easy, but then as Benny says "... there can only be one way of life, and it works."

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 21:04:08
    Kees,

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I remember an instance where the current election coordinator was adamantly opposed to RCs running in the FTSC-elections.

    Now he's one himself and suddenly it's OK ...

    Odd ... no ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 22:36:40
    Hello Ward!

    25 Oct 17 21:04, you wrote to me:

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I remember an instance where the current election coordinator was adamantly opposed to RCs running in the FTSC-elections.

    Now he's one himself and suddenly it's OK ...

    Odd ... no ?

    No, be glad there are people in Fidonet who sufficiently understand
    Fidonet technology and are capable of documenting that in standard documents.
    How many are there that look at coming technologies and propose ways how
    these could be implemented in Fidonet?

    There was a day when all functions could be filled by capable people.
    Now we have Regions where not even one capable person can be found to properly
    perform the RC tasks.

    In the not to far future all Fidonet functions will be filled by one person.

    You cannot look back to the haydays of fidonet in support of current
    arguments.

    If you start doing that, there will be many of us who will be eating our
    hat/shoe/crow or whatever the expression is in different languages.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 23:54:36
    Kees,

    No, be glad there are people in Fidonet who sufficiently understand
    Fidonet technology and are capable of documenting that in standard documents.

    No dispute there.

    Nevertheless it doesn't justify the procedure. There are people willing to run such an election ...

    How many are there that look at coming technologies and propose ways how these could be implemented in Fidonet?

    That is 'not' the mission of the FTSC, and I quote:

    "The main task of the FTSC is to document current practise. Contrary to what the name suggests, the FTSC does not create standards out of the blue.
    Current Fidonet practise evolves and when it has stabilized, it may become a standard through FTSC documentation."

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Kees van Eeten on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 22:01:52
    Hey Kees!

    Not counting the ao-called backwards compatible ghosts still found haunting, I would argue that there are zero people currently running Fidonet.

    In the not to far future all Fidonet functions will be filled by one
    person.

    Quoting The Platters who said it best:

    They, said some day you'll find
    All who love are blind
    When you heart's on fire
    You must realize
    Smoke gets in your eyes

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Maurice Kinal on Thursday, October 26, 2017 00:57:49
    Maurice,

    Not counting the ao-called backwards compatible ghosts still found haunting, I would argue that there are zero people currently running Fidonet.

    If that were the case, we would not be having this exchange of views.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 23:15:59
    Hey Ward!

    If that were the case, we would not be having this exchange of
    views.

    But it isn't either of our respective message editors that are running the network. If it weren't for the robots, many which could easily be considered obsolete nevermind backwards compatible, we would not be having this exchange of views.

    In my case, and I suspect yours as well, Michiel van der Vlist has absolutely zero influence over the infrascruture lovingly known as Fidonet. From this angle all his words for all these years have been nothing more than smoke and it seems to have blinded a few of the posters here.

    Talk about "shame shame shame" eh?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, October 26, 2017 14:14:52
    Hi Ward!

    25 Oct 2017 21:04, from Ward Dossche -> Kees van Eeten:

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?
    I remember an instance where the current election coordinator was adamantly opposed to RCs running in the FTSC-elections.
    Now he's one himself and suddenly it's OK ...

    How many nodes where on Fidonet back then, and how many are now?

    Sounds not too odd to me, to be honest.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Data, I thought you were dead! - No, sir, I rebooted. (2:310/31)
  • From Fred Riccio@1:132/174 to Kees van Eeten on Thursday, October 26, 2017 08:28:40
    25 Oct 17 17:59, Kees van Eeten wrote to Ward Dossche:

    How many years has this Election coordinator been in
    function for this task. How many times was this Election
    coordinator up for reelection.

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I brought it up in the 2015 election, but it was quickly dismissed by... The Election Coordinator.

    --- Msged/NT 6.0.1
    * Origin: Somewhere in New Hampshire's White Mountains (1:132/174)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Richard Menedetter on Thursday, October 26, 2017 14:44:52

    Richard,

    How many nodes where on Fidonet back then, and how many are now?

    I claim it is perfectly possible to find people to run an election if one really wants to give it a try.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Fred Riccio on Thursday, October 26, 2017 14:47:54

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I brought it up in the 2015 election, but it was quickly dismissed by... The Election Coordinator.

    Same way he bashed a discussion in the closed FTSC-echo ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Fred Riccio@1:132/174 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, October 26, 2017 08:58:41
    26 Oct 17 14:47, Ward Dossche wrote to Fred Riccio:

    Same way he bashed a discussion in the closed FTSC-echo ?

    I don't feel that it would be proper to disclose what happens in a private echo
    without the consent of the moderator, even though I am no longer a member.

    --- Msged/NT 6.0.1
    * Origin: Somewhere in New Hampshire's White Mountains (1:132/174)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, October 26, 2017 15:15:54
    Hi Ward!

    26 Oct 2017 14:44, from Ward Dossche -> Richard Menedetter:

    How many nodes where on Fidonet back then, and how many are now?
    I claim it is perfectly possible to find people to run an election if
    one really wants to give it a try.

    IMO it would not make a difference.

    I pretty much do not care one way or another.
    Both ways are OK with me.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Also, avoid awkward affected alliteration. (2:310/31)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Fred Riccio on Thursday, October 26, 2017 15:32:53
    Same way he bashed a discussion in the closed FTSC-echo ?

    I don't feel that it would be proper to disclose what happens in a
    private echo without the consent of the moderator, even though I am no longer a member.

    Even when the moderator does the bashing ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: I will always keep a PC running WinXP (2:292/854)
  • From Fred Riccio@1:132/174 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, October 26, 2017 09:37:55
    26 Oct 17 15:32, Ward Dossche wrote to Fred Riccio:

    Same way he bashed a discussion in the closed FTSC-echo ?

    I don't feel that it would be proper to disclose what happens in a
    private echo without the consent of the moderator, even though I am
    no longer a member.

    Even when the moderator does the bashing ?

    Yes, and it's a perfect example of someone wearing too many hats.

    --- Msged/NT 6.0.1
    * Origin: Somewhere in New Hampshire's White Mountains (1:132/174)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, October 26, 2017 19:53:36
    Hello Ward!

    25 Oct 17 23:54, you wrote to me:

    Nevertheless it doesn't justify the procedure. There are people willing to run such an election ...

    The fact that there are does not always mean, that current procedures have to
    be adapted.

    How many are there that look at coming technologies and propose ways
    how these could be implemented in Fidonet?

    That is 'not' the mission of the FTSC, and I quote:

    "The main task of the FTSC is to document current practise. Contrary to what the name suggests, the FTSC does not create standards out of the blue. Current Fidonet practise evolves and when it has stabilized, it may become a standard through FTSC documentation."

    So others then can ignore what is documentend, claiming the docoment dp not
    document current practice. What a rewarding task.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Maurice Kinal on Thursday, October 26, 2017 19:54:16
    Hello Maurice!

    25 Oct 17 22:01, you wrote to me:

    Not counting the ao-called backwards compatible ghosts still found haunting, I would argue that there are zero people currently running Fidonet.

    You will notice the importent ones until they perish.

    In the not to far future all Fidonet functions will be filled by one
    person.

    Quoting The Platters who said it best:

    They, said some day you'll find
    All who love are blind
    When you heart's on fire
    You must realize
    Smoke gets in your eyes

    Well if you say so.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Fred Riccio on Thursday, October 26, 2017 19:45:24
    Hello Fred!

    26 Oct 17 08:28, you wrote to me:

    How many years has this Election coordinator been in
    function for this task. How many times was this Election
    coordinator up for reelection.

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I brought it up in the 2015 election, but it was quickly dismissed by... The Election Coordinator.

    Well now is your chance, there is almost a crowd.

    I do not inderstand where everybody gets all steamed up about.
    An "Election" is called, candidates are proposed, there is some beckering
    about some minor issues that will not have an influence on the election
    results. Soem ego''s are brused.
    All proposed candidates are elected.

    Everybody goes back to sleep until the next year, a total waste of energy.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Kees van Eeten on Thursday, October 26, 2017 18:29:45
    Hey Kees!

    You will notice the importent ones until they perish.

    At the moment there is only one that matters to 1:153/7001 and he isn't one of the candidates. Also, speaking of documented practices, his node is the only one that 1:153/7001 connects with that can handle the only documented pktHeader
    type, which btw pktHeader types aren't documented. I wonder how many members of the FTSC can claim their chosen software is compatible with documented standards as they stand today.

    So others then can ignore what is documentend, claiming the
    docoment dp not document current practice.

    Or are even aware that their software isn't up to the task.

    Everybody goes back to sleep until the next year, a total waste of
    energy.

    Standard operating procedure.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Ward Dossche on Sunday, October 29, 2017 12:43:15
    Re: Re: Farce V2.00
    By: Ward Dossche to Janis Kracht on Mon Oct 23 2017 04:46 pm

    Janis,

    Participating in an election while running it, even when done in
    the open, is a nono to me.

    I'd suggest perhaps Nicholas Boel, (1:154/10) though I haven't asked
    him about it yet.

    Hmmmm ... I kinda like that suggestion ...

    I like it too, and too late for this year but if you think about it, it could also be someone not on the FTSC who runs the elections (future ones). I see some Z3 and Z2 NC's and probably zome Z1 NC's who'd be up for it. I definatly see some RC's in Z2 and Z1 who could.

    If we consider that a person up for election, shouldnt also run the election, Nicholas Boel can't run it next year as he's up for election then.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS telnet://shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sunday, October 29, 2017 14:17:54
    Re: smoke gets in your eyes
    By: Maurice Kinal to Ward Dossche on Wed Oct 25 2017 11:15 pm

    One of the things that might be notable is is FTA-1001 htp:/ftsc.org/docs/fta-1001.007

    This is how the FTSC operates and the coordinator is voted in by the FTSC itself. It's 4 year terms.

    Should it be a FTSC only member vote? Not sure there.

    Current date ends Oct 2019.

    That seems 2007? Or maybe back over another 4 years before that.

    xxcarol


    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS telnet://shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Fred Riccio on Sunday, October 29, 2017 14:32:24
    Re: Farce V2.00
    By: Fred Riccio to Kees van Eeten on Thu Oct 26 2017 08:28 am

    How many years has this Election coordinator been in
    function for this task. How many times was this Election
    coordinator up for reelection.

    Where was the indignation all these pervious years?

    I brought it up in the 2015 election, but it was quickly dismissed by... The Election Coordinator.

    Fred, understood. It's probably late this year, but deserves to be looked at next year.

    MVDL has literally 4 hats on this one. He's Moderator (public and private echos), FTSC head, FTSC Member (can handle that) but also voting RC.

    *Next year* I'd like some separation there.
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS telnet://shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sunday, October 29, 2017 19:34:42
    Hey Carol!

    Should it be a FTSC only member vote?

    Probably. What difference would it make to extend it beyond?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854.1 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sunday, October 29, 2017 18:56:19

    MVDL has literally 4 hats on this one. He's Moderator (public and private echos), FTSC head, FTSC Member (can handle that) but also voting RC.

    6 ... you forgot "election coordinator" and "participant"

    In the eventuality that he gets elected, I would love to see how it goes when someone objects his election ... there is a strong odour the deck of cards is stacked.

    Ward
    --- Change is inevitable
    * Origin: Baby-Glacier in MOB mode (2:292/854.1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ward Dossche on Sunday, October 29, 2017 21:37:38
    On 2017 Oct 29 18:56:18, you wrote to Carol Shenkenberger:

    In the eventuality that he gets elected, I would love to see how it
    goes when someone objects his election ... there is a strong odour the deck of cards is stacked.

    the odour has been getting stronger each year... this and 2015 are not the first times this multiplicity have been brought up...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... It's hard to believe he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)