Hello All,

I am not sure whom I should be addressing with this suggestion/question. Nick sent me here, so my question:

Instead of using -Unpublished- for the phone field for a lot of the unlist or TCP based systems, and in other zones we are using 000-0-0-0-0, why not use 000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-? Since we (Fido) have always
been about optmization and small as possible node list lines ... this proposal
would save us 2 bytes on every line currently yielding -Unpublished-. This weeks node list has 1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

Thank you for your time,
Ozz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Hello Ozz,

19 Jun 18 21:05 at you wrote to All:

000-0-0-0-0, why not use
000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-? Since we (Fido)
have always been about optmization and small as possible node list

IIRC, older software cannot "understand" the IP layout with the zeros and only can understand "-Unpublished-". It's backwards compatibility from what I understand.

Later,
Sean

... Work smarder and not harder and be careful of yor speling.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

Ozz,

This weeks node list has 1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

Are you real ?

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
* Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

No garbage in the nodelist, please.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

19 Jun 18 21:05, you wrote to all:

I am not sure whom I should be addressing with this suggestion/question. Nick sent me here, so my question:

Instead of using -Unpublished- for the phone field for a lot of the unlist or TCP based systems, and in other zones we are using
000-0-0-0-0, why not use 000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-? Since we (Fido) have always been about optmization and small as possible node list lines ... this proposal would save us 2
bytes on every line currently yielding -Unpublished-. This weeks node
list has 1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

You propose to:

- potentially break existing software for the few remaining dialup nodes
- to save a measly 2 KB (1%) of a 154 KB nodelist
- of a nodelist that is naturally shrinking anyway (50 fewer FidoNet nodes since January)
- for network where the cost of data has mostly been unimportant for more than 15 years

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here.

--- GoldED+/BSD 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Blizzard of Ozz, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (3:633/267)

literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

Are you real ?

Pinched myself, yep... real. I am just working on my new nodelist compiler, and
this was the first inconsistency I have shared, that would actually benefit those still on dial-up. I have two MODEM nodes still running (not in nodelist, as I have not finished QuickBBS rewrite to TCP - then they will be published nodes too).

(zz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Hello Ozz!

19 Jun 18 21:05, you wrote to All:

Instead of using -Unpublished- for the phone field for a lot of the unlist or TCP based systems, and in other zones we are using 000-0-0-0-0, why not use

Somewhere in the history of Fidonet the notation 000-x-x-x-x was introduced
to store IP adresses. That use of the phone field is now discouraged and
not all IP mailers support.

Older versions og Makenl only allowed -Unpublished- in the phonefield for
Nodes tagged as Pvt (Privat). Later versions of makenl allowed -Unpublised-
to be used in the Phonenumber files of common nodes, but not for nodes
tagges as e.g. Zone,Region or Host. Apparent some administrators are using
old versions of makenl and are forced to use the 000 notations to prevent
these lines to be flagged as error.

The aim is to have -Unpublished- in all phonenumber fields when there is
no phonenumber available. All other seemingly harmless notations are bound
to be interpreted as something that is real somewhere in the World.

000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-? Since we (Fido)
have
always been about optmization and small as possible node list lines ... this proposal would save us 2 bytes on every line currently yielding -Unpublished-. This weeks node list has 1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

If you ofset that space to the fact that most filesystems on current size
disks, use blocksizes of 4kb, where is your gain.

If you really want to save on the size of the Nodelist for storage, propose
to reduce the size of the prolog and epilog. These secttions are about half
of the total size of the nodelist.

Size was important when disks were small and transmission costs high.
Neither are true in this age of Internet connections and multi Tb disks.

Thank you for your time,

You are welcome.

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

- of a nodelist that is naturally shrinking anyway (50 fewer FidoNet
nodes since January)

And it'll shrink substantially more before the end of the year ...

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here.

While I applaud developers to come up with new stuff ... I think you are correct...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
* Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)

Are you real ?

Pinched myself, yep... real. I am just working on my new nodelist

As Benny would say ... +1 ...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR28
* Origin: Resist-Insist-Persist-Enlist / onwardtogether.org (2:292/854)

Pinched myself, yep... real. I am just working on my new nodelist compiler, and this was the first inconsistency I have shared, that would actually benefit those still on dial-up. I have two MODEM nodes still running (not in nodelist, as I have not finished QuickBBS rewrite to TCP
- then they will be published nodes too).

Many moons ago, before binkp was invented, someone came up with the brilliant idea to put internet connection via TCP/IP into the nodelist, in a way that didn't break any existing software.

The idea was to give the IP numbers the country code of 000. So, e.g. my "phone number" today would be 000-90-227-100-38. FrontDoor was one of the first
mailers that could handle this.

Unfortunately some ignorant kid in Australia claimed that this could lead to
mailers calling their emergency number (000). Happily ignoring the fact that *all* POTS mailers back then had to translate the "raw" node number in the node
list to a number that the modem could dial. And if the node could dial the NC (a requirement) there's no way that the node could start dialling 000.

Almost all of us knew that. Back then nodes (half a dozen I seem to recall) in New Delhi, India had the country and regional number starting with 91-1, but
we never had any reports about mailers calling the US emergency number.

But all five ZCs back then except Z1C fell for the hoax and banned this brilliant idea. The rest is, as the saying goes, history.

Nowadays we obviously don't need this bright idea any more, now we have binkp and several mailers supporting that protocol, thanks to our Russian friends. <3



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

"raw" node number

That should of course be "raw" phone number, but y'all understood that, no?
8-)



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 2018 Jun 19 21:05:22, you wrote to All:

Instead of using -Unpublished- for the phone field for a lot of the unlist or TCP based systems, and in other zones we are using 000-0-0-0-0, why not use 000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-?

Z1 does... other zones might...

Since we (Fido) have always been about optmization and small as
possible node list lines ... this proposal would save us 2 bytes on
every line currently yielding -Unpublished-. This weeks node list has
1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

no one worries about the nodelist size any more because there is little to no cost to sent it and drive space is exceedingly cheap...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... As I said before, I never repeat myself.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2018 Jun 20 16:57:34, you wrote to Ozz Nixon:

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

you don't... if your mailer even tries, then you have it misconfigured... the 000- psuedo "area code" would prevent that in POTS mailers... IP capable mailers will see the string and know not to call it... valid IPs listed this way will have the 000- stripped and the IP used in the same fashion as a POTS number... frontdoor has been doing this for two decades now...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... I never received any of your e-mails, not until the fourth one.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2018 Jun 20 11:33:30, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

Are you real ?

Pinched myself, yep... real. I am just working on my new nodelist

compiler,

why are you messing with compiling indexes into the nodelist? in today's world,
regex string search is the way to go... maybe one or two lists with only data humans might be interested in (sysop lookup, node number lookup) but even then that's not really desirable when everything is already in the nodelist and easily found...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... A data record is essential; it indicates you have been doing something.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2018 Jun 20 17:33:04, you wrote to Ozz Nixon:

If you really want to save on the size of the Nodelist for storage, propose to reduce the size of the prolog and epilog. These secttions
are about half of the total size of the nodelist.

just give your ZC a boot to the head and get them to stop adding that mess, then ;)

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Pandora, get away from that box!
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

you don't... if your mailer even tries, then you have it
misconfigured...

So why bother with the entry?

the 000- psuedo "area code" would prevent that in POTS
mailers... IP capable mailers will see the string and know not to call it... valid IPs listed this way will have the 000- stripped and the IP used in the same fashion as a POTS number... frontdoor has been doing
this for two decades now...

You know that I know how this works, no? From my FDNODE.CTL I still have

DIAL / 00- ; before int'l
46- 0 ; before area code
46-31- ; local call
000- internet ; IP-number
END

So my 46-31-960447 resolves to

a) 960447 for those in the -31 area code (local call)
b) 031-960447 for those within Sweden (46 country code)
and c) 001-919-774-5930 for a POTS call to you. 8-)

Anyone calling my phone systems number from a Swedish node without the translation will end up dialling a local call to 463196. I don't think it would
have gone unnoticed if that happened in the middle of the ZMH night to the poor
guy with that phone number...

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

No garbage in the nodelist, please.

That is already in the nodelist. It is not an IP, it is heavily used in Zone 4 Region 80 and 88. (167/June 16 2017).

Ozz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

You propose to:

- potentially break existing software for the few remaining dialup nodes
- to save a measly 2 KB (1%) of a 154 KB nodelist
- of a nodelist that is naturally shrinking anyway (50 fewer FidoNet
nodes since January)
- for network where the cost of data has mostly been unimportant for more than 15 years

Actually it is in the current nodelist, and guess all those nodes that are modem are broken ;-(
◄

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here.

Sometimes things need to improve to keep evolution going. If mentioning this minor consistency is an issue, wait until I share FMTP protocol to replace the need of mailers in general.

smirk<

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Somewhere in the history of Fidonet the notation 000-x-x-x-x was
introduced
to store IP adresses. That use of the phone field is now discouraged and

Thanks for the history of the implementation. (Honestly enjoy learning more and
more about the evolution of different aspects of FIDO).
◄

The aim is to have -Unpublished- in all phonenumber fields when there is
no phonenumber available. All other seemingly harmless notations are

Thanks, I will incorporate -Unpublished- into my nodelist compiler and nodelist
builder, to be consistent.
◄

If you ofset that space to the fact that most filesystems on current
size
disks, use blocksizes of 4kb, where is your gain.

Except for DOS based systems, some RaspberryPi systems, they are using 2kb and 512b blocks. Of course, this was just the first improvement I found.
◄

If you really want to save on the size of the Nodelist for storage,
propose
to reduce the size of the prolog and epilog. These secttions are about

100% Agreed. It could be simplified to reference the FTSC.org documents, and a mention they can ask in >best_echo_name< for any assistance. The nodelist does not need to to explain in 2 verbose paragraphs what the file is? Let alone the last 400 lines detailing the flags/etc. URL/HTTP/WEB/LINK.
◄

Size was important when disks were small and transmission costs high. Neither are true in this age of Internet connections and multi Tb disks.

I know in the USA, we still have some who do pay for bandwidth usage - WISPs and Satellite Internet companies service these people - and every byte does count.

Thanks again for your time.
Ozz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Hello mark!

20 Jun 18 12:31, you wrote to me:

just give your ZC a boot to the head and get them to stop adding that mess, then ;)

I process nodelists from three zones, can I boot all three of them to the
head. ;)

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Hello Ozz!

20 Jun 18 13:27, you wrote to andrew clarke:

Sometimes things need to improve to keep evolution going. If mentioning this minor consistency is an issue, wait until I share FMTP protocol to replace the need of mailers in general.

Abstract:
This paper describes a new reliable transport protocol designed to run on
top of a multicast network service for delivery of continuously
generated files.

Challenging.

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Hello Ozz!

20 Jun 18 13:27, you wrote to andrew clarke:

Sometimes things need to improve to keep evolution going. If mentioning this minor consistency is an issue, wait until I share FMTP protocol to replace the need of mailers in general.

Sorry, I forgot to ask.

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol
or
FMTP - File Multicast Transport Protocol

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

just give your ZC a boot to the head and get them to stop adding that mess, then ;)

I second that motion! 8-)

I already delete all of it when I create my weekly binkd nodelist.

But then again, it takes just a second or so to distribute the entire nodelist with all the pro- and epilogue in it, so who cares?



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Ozz,

20 Jun 18 13:27 at you wrote to andrew clarke:

Sometimes things need to improve to keep evolution going. If
mentioning this minor consistency is an issue, wait until I share FMTP protocol to replace the need of mailers in general.

Good luck on evolution in Fidonet. If we can't agree to update P4, I don't think everyone's going to dump their FEMs and go running to something new. As a member of the MBSE development team, along with Andrew Leary, I can safely say that the chances of us adding yet another "new" thing to the software that more than likely won't be used is small. I can appreciate trying to do new things but you may be barking up the wrong tree, to borrow a phrase, in getting this done.

A side note: I use the "000-000-000-000-000" format in the "othernet" I've run for the past 18 years without issue. Then again, all of my hubs and myself run modern software that understands that format even though it's depreciated in Fidonet.

Later,
Sean

... He who puts his nose to the grindstone is a bloody fool.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

On 2018 Jun 20 18:40:42, you wrote to Ozz Nixon:

Many moons ago, before binkp was invented, someone came up with the brilliant idea to put internet connection via TCP/IP into the
nodelist, in a way that didn't break any existing software.

The idea was to give the IP numbers the country code of 000. So, e.g.
my "phone number" today would be 000-90-227-100-38. FrontDoor was one
of the first mailers that could handle this.

+1

Unfortunately some ignorant kid in Australia claimed that this could
lead to mailers calling their emergency number (000). Happily ignoring
the fact that *all* POTS mailers back then had to translate the "raw"
node number in the node list to a number that the modem could dial.
And if the node could dial the NC (a requirement) there's no way that
the node could start dialling 000.

exactly! +1

Almost all of us knew that. Back then nodes (half a dozen I seem to recall) in New Delhi, India had the country and regional number
starting with 91-1, but we never had any reports about mailers calling
the US emergency number.

and there were no reports of any Z1 nodes calling india either... the main reason this and the one above with 000- worked is because those are stripped off for numbers in your own country... in india 91-1 became 1... in the US the leading 1- is stripped off so all you have is the area code, the exchange, and the number...

But all five ZCs back then except Z1C fell for the hoax and banned
this brilliant idea. The rest is, as the saying goes, history.

+1

Nowadays we obviously don't need this bright idea any more, now we
have binkp and several mailers supporting that protocol, thanks to our Russian friends. <3

nice :)

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Helicopters can't really fly, they are so ugly the earth repels them.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2018 Jun 20 19:18:32, you wrote to me:

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

you don't... if your mailer even tries, then you have it
misconfigured...

So why bother with the entry?

because you might be placing the "contact number" in another field where it may
be safer to place letters as used in a domain name... FD can take 000-my.bbs.invalid as a phone number from the nodelist and properly dial it to connect using whatever protocol the FOSSIL provides... but you know this :cheshire_grin:

the 000- psuedo "area code" would prevent that in POTS mailers... IP
capable mailers will see the string and know not to call it... valid
IPs listed this way will have the 000- stripped and the IP used in
the same fashion as a POTS number... frontdoor has been doing this
for two decades now...

You know that I know how this works, no?

of course i do... there are other readers that may not know it, though ;)

From my FDNODE.CTL I still have

DIAL / 00- ; before int'l
46- 0 ; before area code
46-31- ; local call
000- internet ; IP-number
END

the rest looked good! :) i just wanted to show what i have in mine O:)

;DIAL / 1010288-011-
DIAL / 011-

;internet stuff
# internet
0000- internet/:155
000- internet
V internet#

;surrounding area numbers
1-919-258- 258- ; Broadway
1-919-498- 498- ; Olivia
1-919-499- 499- ; Olivia
1-919-708- 708- ; Sanford
1-919-718- 718- ; Sanford
1-919-770- 770- ; Sanford
1-919-774- 774- ; Sanford
1-919-775- 775- ; Sanford
1-919-776- 776- ; Sanford
1-919-777- 777- ; Sanford

;raleigh extended range numbers
1-919-489- 489- ; Durham
1-919-772- 772- ; Raleigh
1-919-779- 779- ; Raleigh
1-919-833- 833- ; Raleigh
1-919-319- 319- ; Cary
END


the first (commented out) DIAL statement up there is from when i was forcing the use of AT&T long distance on international calls... other long distance calls used the long distance i chose through my telco... probably sprint...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2018 Jun 20 19:07:30, you wrote to me:

just give your ZC a boot to the head and get them to stop adding that
mess, then ;)

I process nodelists from three zones, can I boot all three of them to
the head. ;)

hahahahahahaha!

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Even cats have their own lives; get on with yours
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

the first (commented out) DIAL statement up there is from when i was forcing the use of AT&T long distance on international calls... other
long distance calls used the long distance i chose through my telco... probably sprint...

Ah yes, those were the days. I have some old FDNODE.CTL files saved here, with all kinds of various phone numbers to call to get cheaper long distant calls, some with commercials embedded, that we had to make our modems last passed.

It was really a great way to give you a better understanding about how your modem worked, the resulting AT-commands could be really long and totally not understandable -- but very shareable by us that cared about it. 8-)



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Bj÷rn!

20 Jun 2018 16:57, Bj÷rn Felten wrote to Ozz Nixon:

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

+1

No garbage in the nodelist, please.

if he can connect to 0.0.0.0 why not let him ?

and i say it more one time do not add ips to nodelists ever


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.2-gentoo (x86_64))
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

Hello Ward!

20 Jun 2018 18:07, Ward Dossche wrote to Ozz Nixon:

Are you real ?

Pinched myself, yep... real. I am just working on my new nodelist

As Benny would say ... +1 ...

bah


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.2-gentoo (x86_64))
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

Hello mark!

20 Jun 2018 12:24, mark lewis wrote to Bj÷rn Felten:

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

you don't... if your mailer even tries, then you have it
misconfigured...

this is a old bug in binkd versions, it was fixed when i used no-ip.com :)

the 000- psuedo "area code" would prevent that in
POTS mailers... IP capable mailers will see the string and know not to call it... valid IPs listed this way will have the 000- stripped and
the IP used in the same fashion as a POTS number... frontdoor has been doing this for two decades now...

phonefield must not be used for ip numbers, even if its valid ips or not

0.0.0.0 is ANYNET in linux, so he would try to connect to world of all ipv4 at the same time, and waiting for ACK from all to continue deliver something

TCP power :)


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.2-gentoo (x86_64))
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

Hello Bj÷rn!

20 Jun 2018 19:18, Bj÷rn Felten wrote to mark lewis:

DIAL / 00- ; before int'l
46- 0 ; before area code
46-31- ; local call
000- internet ; IP-number
END

this is not ips


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.2-gentoo (x86_64))
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

On 06-20-18 15:46, Sean Dennis <=-
spoke to Ozz Nixon about Nodelist Phone Field (con <=-

Good luck on evolution in Fidonet. If we can't agree to update P4, I don't think everyone's going to dump their FEMs and go running to

Actually, it might be easier today than it was when we last tried. To
start with, there are fewer RCs, and so the number needed to agree to
put an update onto the table is less.

But, those of us who tried before are probably tired of trying and not
willing to float the issue again. I know that I am.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:07:16, 21 Jun 2018
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

this minor consistency is an issue, wait until I share FMTP protocol

Sorry, I forgot to ask.

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol
or
FMTP - File Multicast Transport Protocol

Actually its still in DRAFT mode, we have been testing with 3 nodes in US, 1 in
Russia. FMTP (Fidonet Message Transport Protocol), v0.2b - the goal was to leverage standard protocols on non-standard ports, so FMTP uses SMTP to relay messages, NNTP to send/receive from BBSes. This allows our framework to evolve and work with services already out there. e.g. BBS could offer users email, BBSes could offer users usenet, and of course the protocols being used is how echos would flow. We are currently working on AREAFIX and FILE TIC support - thus, this is premature to go into details. However, I reprocessed last 18 months of mail through it at 87 to 90 messages a second - from US to Russia - via FMTP servers (2) between he and I.

Today, I am joining a 2nd FTN network - and we will be testing to make sure the
FMTP router (tosser in our world) can handle 2 more zones with no message bleed-over. [this is why we run it outside FTN, to avoid OOPs(PG-13)]

Thanks again for your info!
O.

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

things but you may be barking up the wrong tree, to borrow a phrase, in getting this done.

Becoming obvious, but, hopefully those of us who are working on this will be the right people to drum up interest?!
◄

A side note: I use the "000-000-000-000-000" format in the "othernet"

Shhh! That might blow peoples minds ;-)

* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

Wow, I had to drive through there when I lived in PA, going down to see my parents in Chattanooga one summer due to an accident on 81.

Ozz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

But, those of us who tried before are probably tired of trying and not willing to float the issue again. I know that I am.

Well, one of the new features is HTML reader and editor support. Standalone or built into the mailer (for those who need to stay backward compatible). Today we are experimenting with a component called RichMemo allowing for a GUI -- I am just tinkering with ideas of quoting. BBS age, fixed with, usually around 74
characters plus Initials + > as the line quote marker. In non-fixed, this becomes an issue, along with resolution, reader width, auto-wordwrap, etc. And I am trying to introduce the support in a way that as much as possible is backward compatible. -- but, then... why worry about DOS apps, when we can push
out GUI BBS's, Terminals, etc.

Ozz

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: Kees van Eeten to Ozz Nixon on Wed Jun 20 2018 08:44 pm

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol

I read that and immediately thought ot RFC-1140, A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers.

Status of this Memo

This memo describes an experimental method for the encapsulation of
IP datagrams in avian carriers. This specification is primarily
useful in Metropolitan Area Networks. This is an experimental, not
recommended standard. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

Overview and Rational

Avian carriers can provide high delay, low throughput, and low
altitude service. The connection topology is limited to a single
point-to-point path for each carrier, used with standard carriers,
but many carriers can be used without significant interference with
each other, outside of early spring. This is because of the 3D ether
space available to the carriers, in contrast to the 1D ether used by
IEEE802.3. The carriers have an intrinsic collision avoidance
system, which increases availability. Unlike some network
technologies, such as packet radio, communication is not limited to
line-of-sight distance. Connection oriented service is available in
some cities, usually based upon a central hub topology.
--- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: mark lewis to Björn Felten on Wed Jun 20 2018 03:26 pm

;DIAL / 1010288-011-

I haven't seen a or dialed a long-distance access code in YEARS!
--- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello Ozz!

21 Jun 18 12:10, you wrote to me:

Today, I am joining a 2nd FTN network - and we will be testing to make sure the FMTP router (tosser in our world) can handle 2 more zones with no message bleed-over. [this is why we run it outside FTN, to avoid OOPs(PG-13)]

So where is it different from the long existing gating software that was
e.g. built into fidogate. There you could link two fido sytems by
double gating news and messages thru smtp and nntp as well.

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Hello Kurt!

21 Jun 18 11:42, you wrote to me:

Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: Kees van Eeten to Ozz Nixon on Wed Jun 20 2018 08:44 pm

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol

I read that and immediately thought ot RFC-1140, A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers.

As Benny would say +1

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Good ${greeting_time}, Kurt!

21 Jun 2018 11:42:38, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol

I read that and immediately thought ot RFC-1140, A Standard
for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers.

There's a number of 01-Apr RFCs... however, now we have one 01-Apr FSP :-)


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

... god@universe:~ # cvs up && make world
--- /bin/vi
* Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)

Good ${greeting_time}, Kurt!

21 Jun 2018 11:44:26, you wrote to mark lewis:

;DIAL / 1010288-011-

I haven't seen a or dialed a long-distance access code in YEARS!

Yes - we have IP-based protocols for that.

TWIMBOI: I'm preparing the FSP for binkp over secure channels. Most work is (actually, was) performed in Russian-language areas, but you may join the testing.


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

... god@universe:~ # cvs up && make world
--- /bin/vi
* Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)

Hello Kees!

21 Jun 2018 21:18, Kees van Eeten wrote to Kurt Weiske:

Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: Kees van Eeten to Ozz Nixon on Wed Jun 20 2018 08:44 pm

FMTP - Flight Message Transfer Protocol

I read that and immediately thought ot RFC-1140, A Standard for the
Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers.

As Benny would say +1

+1


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works :)

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/4.17.2-gentoo (x86_64))
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

On 2018 Jun 21 00:35:38, you wrote to me:

why not use 000-0-0-0-0

And what will happen if you try to connect to IP number 0.0.0.0?

you don't... if your mailer even tries, then you have it
misconfigured...

this is a old bug in binkd versions, it was fixed when i used no-ip.com :)

binkd? how? it doesn't even know how to read the official distributed fidonet nodelist... or any other nodelist for that matter... we won't even mention that
binkd is little more than a simple protocol engine with BSO capabilities... it
isn't even a full mailer... it could be, though... it could even be a dynamic BSO mailer which would eliminate the need for external 3rd party tools like bonk and son-of-bonk which are used to qualify mail to be sent and reroute netmails to another hop automatically when the qualified mail changes...

the 000- psuedo "area code" would prevent that in POTS mailers... IP
capable mailers will see the string and know not to call it... valid
IPs listed this way will have the 000- stripped and the IP used in
the same fashion as a POTS number... frontdoor has been doing this
for two decades now...

phonefield must not be used for ip numbers, even if its valid ips or not

go away, benny... this practise has been in place since the mid '90s...

0.0.0.0 is ANYNET in linux, so he would try to connect to world of all ipv4 at the same time, and waiting for ACK from all to continue
deliver something

no they wouldn't because a properly programmed and configured FTN mailer would not even attempt to connect to that number...

TCP power :)

no, programmer power...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... The next tagline is recommended for mature readers only.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 06-21-18 13:01, Ozz Nixon <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Nodelist Phone Field <=-

But, those of us who tried before are probably tired of trying and not willing to float the issue again. I know that I am.

Well, one of the new features is HTML reader and editor support.

I was responding to Sean's statement about changing P4, not anything
else.

BTW, I am quite happy with my BLueWave OLR using standard ASCII and
nothing much else. No interest at all in HTML, etc.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 02:13:34, 22 Jun 2018
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

BTW, I am quite happy with my BLueWave OLR using standard ASCII and
nothing much else. No interest at all in HTML, etc.

This is why we have RETRO systems around... and why I am trying to bridge this with ANSI standards, which do support most every RTF command. Easily filtered for NON-INTERESTED-PARTIES (new node flag, NIP). jk.

--- dBridge & Rhenium
* Origin: RVA Fido Support - ExchangeBBS.com, ModernPascal.com (1:275/362)

Hello Dale,

21 Jun 18 01:03 at you wrote to me:

But, those of us who tried before are probably tired of trying and not willing to float the issue again. I know that I am.

There's still too much of the "old guard" left to even bother.

Later,
Sean

... The devil finds work for idle glands.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

Hello Ozz,

21 Jun 18 12:19 at you wrote to me:

Shhh! That might blow peoples minds ;-)

That and over across the fence, everyone's running software that recognizes that format...

* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

Wow, I had to drive through there when I lived in PA, going down to
see my parents in Chattanooga one summer due to an accident on 81.

I drive up to Willamsport once a month for business from Limestone. Yeah, I prefer going down 11-E/321 and down to 421/411 to get to Atlanta instead of running the interstates if at all possible...

Later,
Sean

... I despise the pleasure of pleasing people whom I despise.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)

Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: Ozz Nixon to All on Tue Jun 19 2018 09:05 pm

Hello All,

I am not sure whom I should be addressing with this suggestion/question. Nick sent me here, so my question:

Instead of using -Unpublished- for the phone field for a lot of the unlist
or TCP based systems, and in other zones we are using 000-0-0-0-0, why not use 000-0-0-0-0 for both 000-0-0-0-0 and -Unpublished-? Since we (Fido) have always been about optmization and small as possible node list lines ... this proposal would save us 2 bytes on every line currently yielding -Unpublished-. This weeks node list has 1024 -Unpublished- enrties, this switch would literally shrink the uncompressed nodelist by 2kb.

Hi Ozz,

Sorry for the delay. The 000- set was an interum gap used for ION listing of an NC and others so that it gave a STATIC blockable number that Z3 could use.

See, their verson of '911' is '000'. As nodelisting of IONs took off, this caused issues in Z3 with new sysops dialing their emergency services. Z1 had the same issues with 911 but there wre not many to deal with listed like that. Z1 however had thousands.

As Makenl developed, we were able to have nodelists with -Unpublished- on NC's and RC's and so on. It took a little time for this to be accepted so there was a delay in implementation. Z6 lead the charge and put in the 000-0-0-0-0 'standard' while notifying Z3 to make it a stadard block. Z1 followed within a week as I recall as some other zones.

One of the zones took a bit to resolve some technical issues and now, we can generate a clean nodelist across all with no danger of dialing the Australian/New Zeland emergency line by accident.

We don't care about 2 bytes. ;-) Not this time.

xxcarol
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Re: Nodelist Phone Field (consistency?)
By: mark lewis to Björn Felten on Wed Jun 20 2018 03:20 pm

Hi Mark, the main issue on the 000 was the Z3C asked for a change. Needed or not, the 000-0-0-0-0 gave a solid unchanging block they could use if worried about it.

It's about working with each each other.

xxcarol
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
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