• Question on FTS-0001

    From deon@3:633/509 to All on Sunday, October 08, 2023 15:08:59
    Howdy,

    I have a user who is having trouble importing echomail mail from clrghouz (my mailer/tosser) using BBBS (other users appear to not be affected).

    In FTS-0001, section C.1 regarding a packed message, it states:

    PakdMessage = 02H 00H (* message type, old type-1 obsolete *)
    origNode (* of message *)
    destNode (* of message *)
    origNet (* of message *)
    destNet (* of message *)

    So assume this scenario, an echomail message originates from node 1/1, and is sent to it's hub 2/2. The hub then sends the message onto node 3/3.

    When the hub (2/2) exports and packs the message for 3/3, is the "origNode", "origNet" 2 (for the hub), or 1 (because that is where the message originated from).

    From my testing, I think both at least hpt and mbse use 2 for the origNode/origNet - but FTSC says "of message", which I originally interpretted that it needed to be "1" since the "message" originated from 1/1.

    It also says this "Due to routing, the origin and destination net and node of a packet are often quite different from those of the messages within it", which would be true for netmail, but is it also true for echomail?

    Have I missed an FTSC document that states echomail should use the hub's details?


    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to deon on Sunday, October 08, 2023 03:00:51
    Hello deon!

    08 Oct 23 15:08, you wrote to all:

    I have a user who is having trouble importing echomail mail from
    clrghouz (my mailer/tosser) using BBBS (other users appear to not be affected).

    In FTS-0001, section C.1 regarding a packed message, it states:

    PakdMessage = 02H 00H (* message type, old type-1 obsolete *)
    origNode (* of message *)
    destNode (* of message *)
    origNet (* of message *)
    destNet (* of message *)

    So assume this scenario, an echomail message originates from node 1/1,
    and is sent to it's hub 2/2. The hub then sends the message onto node
    3/3.

    When the hub (2/2) exports and packs the message for 3/3, is the "origNode", "origNet" 2 (for the hub), or 1 (because that is where the message originated from).

    From my testing, I think both at least hpt and mbse use 2 for the origNode/origNet - but FTSC says "of message", which I originally interpretted that it needed to be "1" since the "message" originated
    from 1/1.

    It also says this "Due to routing, the origin and destination net and
    node of a packet are often quite different from those of the messages within it", which would be true for netmail, but is it also true for echomail?

    It can be. In the early days of FidoNet, it was quite possible for a node to participate in echomail conferences via routed mail. In this scenario, echomail is simply netmail with an AREA: line.

    Have I missed an FTSC document that states echomail should use the
    hub's details?

    Take a look at FTS-0004.001 for more information on this; it's available at http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0004.001 ...

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Andrew Leary on Sunday, October 08, 2023 21:35:56
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Andrew Leary to deon on Sun Oct 08 2023 03:00 am

    Hey Andrew,

    So assume this scenario, an echomail message originates from node 1/1, and is sent to it's hub 2/2. The hub then sends the message onto node 3/3.

    When the hub (2/2) exports and packs the message for 3/3, is the "origNode", "origNet" 2 (for the hub), or 1 (because that is where the message originated from).
    It also says this "Due to routing, the origin and destination net and node of a packet are often quite different from those of the messages within it", which would be true for netmail, but is it also true for echomail?

    It can be. In the early days of FidoNet, it was quite possible for a node to participate in echomail conferences via routed mail. In this scenario, echomail is simply netmail with an AREA: line.

    So it would be considered "routed" echomail if origNet/origNode != Hub's net/node?

    And thus, for clarity, origNet/origNode determines which nodes send the echomail, not which node originated it?

    PakdMessage = 02H 00H (* message type, old type-1 obsolete *)
    origNode (* of message *)
    destNode (* of message *)
    origNet (* of message *)
    destNet (* of message *)

    IE: "of message" in this context is not who originated the message, but who sent it on to another system?


    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Rob Swindell to deon on Tuesday, October 10, 2023 12:11:30
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: deon to All on Sun Oct 08 2023 03:08 pm

    From my testing, I think both at least hpt and mbse use 2 for the origNode/origNet - but FTSC says "of message", which I originally interpretted that it needed to be "1" since the "message" originated from 1/1.

    SBSSecho (and SBBSFIDO before it) always had to parse the originating address of echomail messages from the Origin line (which is a bad design, imho), because the packed message headers usually reflect the last-hop (or hub) address and not the originating node address.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #43:
    Synchronet added Baja/PCMS support with v2.00a (1994)
    Norco, CA WX: 68.9°F, 74.0% humidity, 3 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Rob Swindell on Tuesday, October 10, 2023 19:32:10
    Hey Rob!

    packed message headers usually reflect the last-hop (or hub)
    address and not the originating node address.

    I see originating node addresses in packed msg headers. They are preserved by anything I am using. As far as I am aware that is the correct operating procedure.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    -o -o o- o- -o -o -o o- o- o- -o -o o- -o o- -o
    (\ (\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) (\ (\ /) (\ /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Unlæde bið and ormod se ðe a wile geomrian on gihðe.
    Wretched and hopeless is he who wants to go on lamenting in sorrow.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Maurice Kinal on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 15:39:16
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Maurice Kinal to Rob Swindell on Tue Oct 10 2023 07:32 pm

    packed message headers usually reflect the last-hop (or hub)
    address and not the originating node address.

    I see originating node addresses in packed msg headers. They are preserved by anything I am using. As far as I am aware that is the correct operating procedure.

    So I thought so to, which is what I implemented.

    It seems BBBS doesnt like it, and nothing else I've tested complains.

    But from my testing, and I guess confirmed too by Rob, many things use the "last hop" in the packed message header.

    What "should" it be? (To me, the FTSC implies it should be the originating node.)




    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to deon on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 05:09:46
    Hey deon!

    It seems BBBS doesnt like it, and nothing else I've tested
    complains.

    I'm inclined to go along with nothing else.

    But from my testing, and I guess confirmed too by Rob, many
    things use the "last hop" in the packed message header.

    Interesting but often that information might not be available to the end user from a stored msg, which in my particular case would be true.

    What "should" it be?

    I plan to investigate this further before committing to any "should".

    (To me, the FTSC implies it should be the originating node.)

    I agree. The address where the msg originated seems appropriate.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- -o -o o- o- o- o- o- -o -o -o o- o- o- -o o- /) (\ (\ /) /) /) /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) (\ /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Onwald mæg wel reccean se þe ægðer ge hiene habban con ge wiðwinnan.
    He wields power well who can both hold and resist it.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Rob Swindell to Maurice Kinal on Tuesday, October 10, 2023 23:23:54
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Maurice Kinal to Rob Swindell on Tue Oct 10 2023 07:32 pm

    Hey Rob!

    packed message headers usually reflect the last-hop (or hub)
    address and not the originating node address.

    I see originating node addresses in packed msg headers. They are preserved by anything I am using. As far as I am aware that is the correct operating procedure.

    While that's true and expected of packed *netmail*, from my experience, going through GEcho, FrontDoor, D'Bridge and InterEcho, packed echomail message header's contained the last hop address as the origin address and the importing system must parse the Origin line to get the originating node address (of echomail messages only). And this is also how SBBSecho operates when packing echomail messages for export.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #7:
    BinkD = Binkley Daemon
    Norco, CA WX: 62.2°F, 91.0% humidity, 0 mph N wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Rob Swindell on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 08:36:02
    Hey Rob!

    GEcho, FrontDoor, D'Bridge and InterEcho, packed echomail
    message header's contained the last hop address as the origin
    address

    Offhand I am thinking the above sounds right, although it might have been better at the time to come up with different prefixes than 'orig' for addresses that facillitate distribution of msg's which they had no part in creating (originating from). Also the current documentation isn't exactly crystal clear on this issue, to say the least.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- -o o- -o o- -o o- o- -o -o o- o- o- o- o- /) /) (\ /) (\ /) (\ /) /) (\ (\ /) /) /) /) /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Gleawe men sceolon gieddum wrixlan.
    Wise men should exchange sayings.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Tim Schattkowsky@2:240/1120.29 to Maurice Kinal on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 20:53:07
    //Hello Maurice,//

    on *11.10.23* at *5:09:46* You wrote in Area *FTSC_PUBLIC*
    to *deon* about *"Question on FTS-0001"*.

    after all your experiments, I would really aprreciate it, if you would include a REPLY-Header to not break all conversations involving you ;)

    Regards,
    Tim

    --- WinPoint 415.0
    * Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Tim Schattkowsky on Wednesday, October 11, 2023 19:46:57
    Hey Tim!

    if you would include a REPLY-Header to not break all
    conversations involving you ;)

    I refuse to make one up for those who cannot be bothered to include a standardized MSGID. The fact that many of you are replicating those fsck ups speaks volumes and is the true source of corrupted MSGIDs and thus by default corrupted REPLY kludges.

    As for the MSG header issue I will gladly post what I see in my incoming packed MSGs, both new and from archived and unprocessed raw PKTs (as original as it gets).

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- -o -o o- -o -o -o o- o- -o o- o- o- o- o- /) /) (\ (\ /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) (\ /) /) /) /) /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Dreamas sind gewitene, wuniað þa wacran ond þæs woruld healdaþ.
    Joys are departed; weaker ones now live and hold the world.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to deon on Thursday, October 12, 2023 00:19:25
    Hello deon!

    11 Oct 23 15:39, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    So I thought so to, which is what I implemented.

    It seems BBBS doesnt like it, and nothing else I've tested complains.

    But from my testing, and I guess confirmed too by Rob, many things use
    the "last hop" in the packed message header.

    What "should" it be? (To me, the FTSC implies it should be the
    originating node.)

    It should be the originating node. I will verify in the MBSE code that it does not change this.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Andrew Leary on Thursday, October 12, 2023 05:24:59
    Hey Andrew!

    It should be the originating node. I will verify in the MBSE
    code that it does not change this.

    Digging through the archives I found 971 unique raw MSGs that all show the binary (packed unsigned shorts, aka 16-bit unsigned integers) I took the liberty of converting,
    2,219,7001,320,153,0,0
    which corresponds to,
    message type,origNode,destNode,origNet,destNet,Attribute,cost

    The only deviation is that a few MSGs occasionally give an Attribute value of 256. All MSGs have the orig address as 320/219, which is you, and dest address as 153/7001, which is me. This matches with Rob's assessment of the situation since many of the MSGs did not originate on your node.

    Also other links I have show the same behavior except of course with their net/node in the MSG headers.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- o- o- o- o- -o -o -o -o o- o- -o o- -o o- /) /) /) /) /) /) (\ (\ (\ (\ /) /) (\ /) (\ /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Sceal bryde beag, bec leornere, husl halgum men.
    A ring for a bride, books for a student, the Host for holy men.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Andrew Leary on Thursday, October 12, 2023 14:17:13
    Andrew Leary -> deon skrev 2023-10-12 06:19:
    What "should" it be? (To me, the FTSC implies it should be the
    originating node.)

    It should be the originating node. I will verify in the MBSE code that it does not change this.

    I pointed out this origNode error many years ago (because it made a program of mine more difficult to get functioning properly).

    The response was the usual "this is how we've always done it" and nothing more happened. I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware out there.

    BTW, this is still a real name echo, yes?

    --
    People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Björn Felten on Thursday, October 12, 2023 16:36:20
    Hey Björn!

    I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware
    out there.

    Who in their right mind would want to do that?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    -o -o o- o- -o o- -o -o -o -o -o o- -o -o o- -o
    (\ (\ /) /) (\ /) (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ /) (\ (\ /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Scearp scyldwiga [sceal] gescad witan worda ond worca.
    A sharp warrior must know the difference between words and deeds.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Maurice Kinal on Thursday, October 12, 2023 23:08:48
    I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware
    out there.

    Who in their right mind would want to do that?

    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS -- abandon it for better software.

    --
    People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Björn Felten on Thursday, October 12, 2023 21:56:15
    Hey Björn!

    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS

    Agreed. My original response stands firm.

    abandon it for better software.

    There is a choice?

    BTW your CHRS kludge doesn't exist but it isn't like that kludge actually does anything even if compliant so everything worked out despite the obvious flaw.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    -o -o o- o-
    (\ (\ /) /)
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Beforan his freonde biddeþ, se þe his wædle mæneþ.
    He who bemoans his poverty should seek help from his friends.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Rob Swindell to Bj¡rn Felten on Thursday, October 12, 2023 16:36:34
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Bj¡rn Felten to Maurice Kinal on Thu Oct 12 2023 11:08 pm

    I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware
    out there.

    Who in their right mind would want to do that?

    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS -- abandon it for better software.

    I this case, I don't think we're talking about a bug. Perhaps it was a bad design choice, but it was still "the design" and all FTN-compliant software should continue to follow suit.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #60:
    PETSCII = PET Standard Code of Information Interchange (a.k.a. CBM ASCII) Norco, CA WX: 85.1°F, 18.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Bjrn Felten on Friday, October 13, 2023 00:44:18
    Hello Bjrn!

    12 Oct 23 14:17, you wrote to me:

    It should be the originating node. I will verify in the MBSE
    code that it does not change this.

    I pointed out this origNode error many years ago (because it made a program of mine more difficult to get functioning properly).

    It does cause some issues. I did some digging in the mbfido code last night, and discovered that it actually does something similar to SBBSEcho, in that it parses the Origin line of EchoMail messages to determine the origin address.

    The response was the usual "this is how we've always done it" and nothing more happened. I guess, now it's far too late to fix all the buggy, abandonware out there.

    I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

    BTW, this is still a real name echo, yes?

    It is.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Andrew Leary on Friday, October 13, 2023 10:27:36
    Andrew,

    I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

    What about it ?

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Ward Dossche on Friday, October 13, 2023 05:09:31
    Hello Ward!

    13 Oct 23 10:27, you wrote to me:

    I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard.
    The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice,
    but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

    What about it ?

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's permission first. The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Andrew Leary on Friday, October 13, 2023 12:43:34
    Hello Andrew,

    On Friday October 13 2023 05:09, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
    allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
    charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
    Bush's permission first.

    I tried that and failed.

    The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

    Good luck.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Nieuw Schnøørd (2:280/5555)
  • From Dmitry Protasoff@2:5001/100.1 to Michiel van der Vlist on Friday, October 13, 2023 14:51:58
    Hello, Michiel!

    Friday October 13 2023 12:43, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

    The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

    Good luck.

    Just use ChatGPT for that? :)

    Best regards,
    dp.

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230304
    * Origin: All is good in St. John's Wood (2:5001/100.1)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Andrew Leary on Friday, October 13, 2023 17:33:11
    Hello Andrew,

    What about it ?

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's permission first.

    I know that ... but what about it?

    Several years ago Randy Bush and that weirdo from San Francisco, what's his name again ... oh yes, Tom Jennings, threatened to sue me in a court of law if I or anyone else dared to touch that document by even changing a comma.

    Of course, such a court case would need to be started 'here' and I have been sued over Fidonet matters before. It's documented in Fidonews. It would be without merit, no decent lawyer would take it.

    When I told Randy and Tom to go fuck themselves (not with these words) years after either had left Fidonet, Randy went into a fit stating that Fidonet is nothing but cat-litter reeking like cat-urine ... and Bjorn or Michiel undoubtedly have another quote saying something about "pissant"-stuff.

    For me Randy (and Tom too) have lost all the respect they once deserved.

    It is my opinion that if FTS-0001 needs to be updated, it can be ammended without touching the original text and keeping everybody happy, even the cat people with their cat-wisdoms...

    Of course, it's an opinion and everyone has one, just like they have an arse, and it stinks ... I was taught that in Montana.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Andrew Leary on Saturday, October 14, 2023 06:14:00
    Good ${greeting_time}, Andrew!

    13 Oct 2023 05:09:30, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard.
    The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice,
    but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.
    What about it ?
    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
    allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
    charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
    Bush's permission first.

    I've once offered a working method of bypassing any and all of fu...nny copyrights.

    The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

    Yes, and the new document could be based just on existing open software.


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Michiel van der Vlist on Saturday, October 14, 2023 06:22:00
    Good ${greeting_time}, Michiel!

    13 Oct 2023 12:43:34, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
    allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
    charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy
    Bush's permission first.
    MvdV> I tried that and failed.

    That was never expected to work.

    The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.
    MvdV> Good luck.

    I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

    ... that's why I really dislike fools.
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: ::1 (2:5020/545)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Alexey Vissarionov on Saturday, October 14, 2023 04:43:11
    Hey Alexey!

    I've once offered a working method of bypassing any and all of
    fu...nny copyrights.

    Sounds interesting. I'd be highly interested in such a conversation especially where it pertains to obsolescence.

    Yes, and the new document could be based just on existing open
    software.

    That works for me.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    o- o- -o -o -o o- o- o- o- -o o- o- -o o- -o o- /) /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) /) (\ /) /) (\ /) (\ /) ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... A mæg God wyrcan wunder æfter wundre, wuldres hyrde.
    God may ever work wonder after wonder, the Guardian of glory.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Andrew Leary on Friday, October 13, 2023 10:43:17
    Hi, Andrew -- on Oct 13 2023 at 05:09, you wrote:

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does not
    allow distributing it unless it is without modification and at no
    charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure

    When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright law.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Alexey Vissarionov on Saturday, October 14, 2023 10:13:33
    Alexey,

    I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...

    +1

    One day I need to go to Moscow and meet all you people there ...when all the Ukraine-shit-dust has settled.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dallas Hinton on Saturday, October 14, 2023 10:14:47
    Dallas,

    When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright law.

    Why should you care in Canada?

    I say to just ignore it and do what needs to be done. Then see if someone in Portland OR really gives enough of a shit. Blame the international Coordinator, I've been sued before ...

    The meaning of the copyright is to protect Fidonet and keep it available for "all", and that's a good thing. We've survived 28 years without Randy Bush.

    Before I retired I was a manager at the phone company. I was not interested much why things don't work, but rather in what it took to make it work.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Dallas Hinton on Saturday, October 14, 2023 05:25:46
    Hello Dallas!

    13 Oct 23 10:43, you wrote to me:

    Randy Bush's copyright notice as published in FTS-0001.016 does
    not allow distributing it unless it is without modification and
    at no charge. To proceed with updating it, we would need to
    secure

    When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright
    law.

    In general, US copyright protection for works created after January 1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Andrew Leary on Saturday, October 14, 2023 13:24:34
    Andrew,

    When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US copyright AL>DH> law.

    In general, US copyright protection for works created after January 1,
    1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.

    I think you are terribly mistaken.

    The US is a signatory of the Berne Convention and has ratified it, plus there are other implications when going "international" ... copyright on texts which I wrote, having been published in National Geographic, was never honoured. That's how it works ... copyright ... reproduction rights ... intellectual property rights ... It's way more complicated than googling a website.

    It's like George Patton and Lee Iacocca once said ... "either lead, follow or get out of the way". Citing why things cannot be done, is not a good example.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Alexey Vissarionov on Saturday, October 14, 2023 13:08:24
    Hello Alexey,

    On Saturday October 14 2023 06:22, you wrote to me:

    To proceed with updating it, we would need to secure Randy Bush's
    permission first.

    MvdV>> I tried that and failed.

    That was never expected to work.

    I had some hope it would work, else I would not have tried.

    The alternative would be to completely rewrite it from scratch.

    MvdV>> Good luck.

    I wonder why you all are so concerned about that copyshit...

    I would like others to respect my copyright. So I should respect the copyrights of others. Even if it is not convenient and the other is an asshole.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Nieuw Schnøørd (2:280/5555)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Andrew Leary on Saturday, October 14, 2023 13:23:51
    Hi, Andrew -- on Oct 14 2023 at 05:25, you wrote:

    In general, US copyright protection for works created after January
    1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70
    years.

    Thanks - that's the same in Canada. I don't know the implications of a Canadian breaking US copyright (or vice versa).


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Dallas Hinton on Saturday, October 14, 2023 20:49:28
    Hey Dallas!

    I don't know the implications of a Canadian breaking US copyright

    Your lawyer gets to add on the exchange rate to his/her fees.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    -o o- -o -o o- o- o- -o o- o- -o o- o- o- o- -o
    (\ /) (\ (\ /) /) /) (\ /) /) (\ /) /) /) /) (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Ellen sceal on eorle; ecg sceal wið hellme hilde gebidan.
    Courage belongs in a warrior; sword against helmet shall face battle.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Ward Dossche on Saturday, October 14, 2023 18:51:21
    Hello Ward!

    14 Oct 23 13:24, you wrote to me:

    When does that copyright expire? I'm not familiar with US
    copyright
    law.

    In general, US copyright protection for works created after
    January 1, 1978 lasts for the life of the author plus an
    additional 70 years.

    I think you are terribly mistaken.

    I don't. The author of the document wrote it in the US. I made no claims regarding the copyright anywhere but in the US.

    The US is a signatory of the Berne Convention and has ratified it,
    plus there are other implications when going "international" ...

    That may be the case, but I stand by what I wrote above. I made no attempt to determine exactly how the US copyright would apply in other countries under the Berne Convention.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20230826
    * Origin: From the Desk of the FTSC Administrator (1:320/219)
  • From Rob Swindell to Andrew Leary on Sunday, October 15, 2023 14:03:38
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Andrew Leary to Bj¡rn Felten on Fri Oct 13 2023 12:44 am

    I consider it unlikely that anything will change in that regard. The documentation should be corrected to document actual practice, but that raises the issue of the copyright on FTS-0001.

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #22:
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
    Norco, CA WX: 93.3°F, 15.0% humidity, 0 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Bj≈rn Felten on Monday, October 16, 2023 21:45:12
    Hi Bj≈rn!

    12 Oct 2023 23:08, from Bj≈rn Felten -> Maurice Kinal:

    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
    -- abandon it for better software.

    You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

    CU, Ricsi

    ... It's the net: clarity and depth of thought are totally out of place.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: WARNING! I'm naked under these clothes! (2:310/31)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Rob Swindell on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 08:59:07
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to Andrew Leary on Sun Oct 15 2023 02:03 pm

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.

    I'd disagree.

    The question that I started was (and I'll paraphrase) what was the origNet/origNode represent in a packed message header.

    The answers I've seen are:
    * Its the source message address,
    * Its the last hop's address

    It should be known as one or the other.

    The english description "orig..." implies it is from the source of the message, ie: the originator, but convention seems to be that it represents the last hop.

    That should be clarified and updated.


    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Richard Menedetter on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 00:22:43
    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
    -- abandon it for better software.

    You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

    LOL! Yeah, that's probably a better alternative. More easily available is the dos emulator in Windows (CMD.EXE).


    --
    People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Björn Felten on Monday, October 16, 2023 21:12:00
    Björn Felten wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

    It's as easy to fix as fixing the bugs in MS-DOS
    -- abandon it for better software.

    You mean use FreeDOS? ;)

    LOL! Yeah, that's probably a better alternative. More easily
    available is the dos emulator in Windows (CMD.EXE).

    How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

    I don't have any computers running Windoze here, and don't want any.



    ... Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 18:10:15
    How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

    Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.


    --
    People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Vitaliy Aksyonov@1:104/117 to Bj?rn Felten on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 10:22:24
    Hello Bj?rn.

    17 Oct 23 18:10, you wrote to Dan Clough:

    How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

    Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.

    You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

    - Android - 40%
    - MS Windows - 29%
    - iOS - 17%

    and others.

    Vitaliy

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20231007
    * Origin: Aurora, Colorado (1:104/117)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Vitaliy Aksyonov on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 22:33:57
    Vitaliy,

    You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

    - Android - 40%
    - MS Windows - 29%
    - iOS - 17%

    and others.

    Stay away from the cheap vodka ... 8-)

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Vitaliy Aksyonov on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 19:47:00
    Vitaliy Aksyonov wrote to Bj?rn Felten <=-

    17 Oct 23 18:10, you wrote to Dan Clough:

    How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

    Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70 percent.

    You're information is outdated. In July 2023 it was:

    - Android - 40%
    - MS Windows - 29%
    - iOS - 17%

    Well..... he did say *desktop* operating system.

    How many desktops run Android...?

    That's right.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 19:52:00
    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    How is that "more easily available" than FreeDOS?

    Microsoft's Windows was the dominant desktop operating system
    (OS) worldwide as of July 2023, with a market share of around 70
    percent.

    That may be true, I don't really know. My guess is that it's something
    less than that.

    What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it, or break the law and use a pirated copy. To use FreeDOS, one simply has to download it and use it.

    So, I ask again - how is Windoze more easily available than FreeDOS? Literally *ANYONE* can have a legal copy of FreeDOS within 2 minutes of reading this message.

    I therefore declare your claim to be false/wrong.

    Case closed. NEXT!






    ... Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 07:34:21
    Dan Clough -> Björn Felten skrev 2023-10-18 02:52:
    What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it,

    Or you can purchase a desktop computer. When was the last time you bought a desktop computer, other than an Apple variant, that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?


    --
    People who think that democratic elections are all about picking the right winner, are in dire need of re-education.

    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)
  • From Rob Swindell to deon on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 23:24:08
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: deon to Rob Swindell on Tue Oct 17 2023 08:59 am

    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to Andrew Leary on Sun Oct 15 2023 02:03 pm

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. If any FTSC doc needed "correction" (I'd say "clarification") in this regard, it'd be FTS-4.

    I'd disagree.

    The norm/rules for netmail and echomail are different.

    The question that I started was (and I'll paraphrase) what was the origNet/origNode represent in a packed message header.

    The answers I've seen are:
    * Its the source message address,
    * Its the last hop's address

    It should be known as one or the other.

    The english description "orig..." implies it is from the source of the message, ie: the originator, but convention seems to be that it represents the last hop.

    That should be clarified and updated.

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #47:
    He said he'll break my legs, he meant It... he gave me the dead mackerel eyes. Norco, CA WX: 67.0°F, 70.0% humidity, 0 mph N wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 09:38:02
    Or you can purchase a desktop computer. When was the last time you
    bought a desktop computer, other than an Apple variant, that did *not*
    have Windows pre-installed?

    I have never in my life bought a desktop computer, prefer to build 'm myself that way I know what's in it, what it does and how to repair it.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - 20230201
    * Origin: Many Glacier - Preserve / Protect / Conserve (2:292/854)
  • From deon@3:633/509 to Rob Swindell on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 19:04:45
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

    I dont wish it did.

    FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

    I'm not sure what your refering to though...


    ...δεσ∩
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 10:36:39
    Hey Björn!

    When was the last time you bought a desktop computer,

    Fairly recently except I call them PCs, sometimes servers when appropriate.

    other than an Apple variant,

    Never. Vastly overpriced label makers.

    that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?

    That never happened. I did have a laptop that had Windows pre-installed but it never stood a chance and it never got booted before the drive was wiped out and replaced with Linux. I still have it but hardly ever use it. The last thing I installed on there was the latest Slackware-current. It needs upgrading. I figure linux-6.6 which should be soon.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    o- -o -o -o
    /) (\ (\ (\
    ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
    ... Hyge sceal gehealden, hond gewealden.
    The mind must be restrained, the hand trained.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.2.15(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)
  • From Dan Clough@1:135/115 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 07:41:00
    Björn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Dan Clough -> Björn Felten skrev 2023-10-18 02:52:
    What I do know is that to actually have/use that OS, you have to either purchase it,

    Or you can purchase a desktop computer.

    Okay, so even though you won't say it, you do concede that getting/using FreeDOS is indeed more readily available.

    When was the last time you bought a desktop computer, other than an
    Apple variant, that did *not* have Windows pre-installed?

    Probably around 1996 or so. I don't buy desktop computers. I buy the
    pieces and assemble them myself, and Windoze is not part of that.

    Game. Set. Match.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)
  • From Rob Swindell to deon on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 17:46:36
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: deon to Rob Swindell on Wed Oct 18 2023 07:04 pm

    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

    I dont wish it did.

    FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

    I'm not sure what your refering to though...

    FTS-1 talks about packed *netmail* messages, which are different than packed *echomail* messages.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #65:
    He's got to make his own mistakes and learn to mend the mess he makes
    Norco, CA WX: 85.3°F, 39.0% humidity, 2 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
  • From Rob Swindell to deon on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 23:30:27
    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to deon on Wed Oct 18 2023 05:46 pm

    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: deon to Rob Swindell on Wed Oct 18 2023 07:04 pm

    Re: Question on FTS-0001
    By: Rob Swindell to deon on Tue Oct 17 2023 11:24 pm

    FTS-1 doesn't deal with echomail. You can wish it did, but it just doesn't.

    I dont wish it did.

    FTS-0001 talks about packed messages - which is what I'm talking about.

    I'm not sure what your refering to though...

    Let me try further clarifcation: when FTS-1 (FSC-1) was first written, there was only one type of FidoNet message: the one-to-one private message that we now call "netmail". It wasn't until the invention described in FTS-4 that one-to-many messages (then called "conference mail", but now commonly called "echomail") was introduced. So every reference to a "message" in FTS-1 is implicitly a reference to a "netmail message". There's no mention of "netmail" or "echomail" in FTS-1 because there these terms were not in use when originally written since there was no need to disambiguate between one-to-one and one-to-many FidoNet messages. Only the former existed... until "conference mail" (and FTS-4) came along. FSC/FTS-1 was likely formalized and published some time after conference mail (echomail) was introduced and commonplace, but the orgins and chronological evolution of FidoNet was maintained in the incremental numbering and increasing comprehensiveness of the published specs. FTS-1 isn't supposed to paint the complete picture of FTN, just the foundation (with some extraneous, some now-obsolete, details thrown in for historic context).
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #28:
    Gomey, got beat your pinata. - Hank Schrader
    Norco, CA WX: 69.1°F, 74.0% humidity, 0 mph NNE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs