Howdy all!
Here's a converstation starter for you:
What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based (NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly comporable to dialup.
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What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

IPoAC.

\%/@rd
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On 05-15-21 17:14, Kostie Muirhead wrote to All <=-

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based (NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great potential. Speeds at realistic distances
are fairly comporable to dialup.

Interesting, though I'm probably the only BBS sysop or user in town. But I like the concept. :)


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Hello Kostie;

Kostie Muirhead wrote to All <=-

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the
hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

To parallel amateur packet radio, CBers also do packet and I understand a
good number of them use my software to do so with. In many cases a license
is NOT required. There's also the possibility of building a private 802.11 network not connected to the internet as well.

I'm currently a licensed radio operator so I could use packet.
Considering how little there's traffic on the packet BBS gating fido<>packet actually might not be a bad idea.

-Brian N1URO

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Hello Kostie Muirhead!

** On Saturday 15.05.21 - 17:14, Kostie Muirhead wrote to All:

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based
(NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination
of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great
potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly
comporable to dialup. ===

Now you've done it. This started me into a rabbit hole of LoRa
vs LoRaWAN, TTN, etc..

This article was among the first:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/free-vs-enterprise-lorawan-paul- mcmanus?articleId=6676227517722046464

When you say "NOT LoRaWan" are you referring to the entities
that have commercialized it?

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On 05-15-21 20:28, Brian Rogers wrote to Kostie Muirhead <=-

To parallel amateur packet radio, CBers also do packet and I understand
a good number of them use my software to do so with. In many cases a

Depends on what part of the world you're in. In Australia, packet over CB and Radio over IP for CB are explicitly banned under the current CB class licence. :(

license is NOT required. There's also the possibility of building a private 802.11 network not connected to the internet as well.

True. :)

I'm currently a licensed radio operator so I could use packet.
Considering how little there's traffic on the packet BBS gating fido<>packet actually might not be a bad idea.

Again, have to be a little careful here. While third party traffic rules aren't an issue (it's basically any TPT is permitted, unless explicitly prohibited), there can be an issue with content. This used to be an issue with Winlink as well, which made it controversial, since Winlink can transmit Internet originated traffic unattended. I can't remember how the ACMA changed the rules to allow this, without manual oversight.


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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Depends on what part of the world you're in. In Australia, packet over
CB and Radio over IP for CB are explicitly banned under the current CB class licence. :(

True that. Every country has it's own rules and regs.

Again, have to be a little careful here. While third party traffic
rules aren't an issue (it's basically any TPT is permitted, unless explicitly prohibited), there can be an issue with content. This used
to be an issue with Winlink as well, which made it controversial, since Winlink can transmit Internet originated traffic unattended. I can't remember how the ACMA changed the rules to allow this, without manual oversight.

Don't get me going on Winlink <G>

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Howdy all!
Here's a converstation starter for you:
What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based (NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly comporable to dialup.
===

If there were enough nodes close enough a wifi based mesh maybe.. But LoRa is probably more promising. Or there is a new technology I got word on that involves these cards called modems.. they hook up to a phone line and dial phone numbers.. slow but effective ;) jk LoRa would be a fun thing to try. --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
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On 05-17-21 08:06, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Depends on what part of the world you're in. In Australia, packet over
CB and Radio over IP for CB are explicitly banned under the current CB class licence. :(

True that. Every country has it's own rules and regs.

Yep, my point was don't assume. ;)

Don't get me going on Winlink <G>

Haha, well it works, but has been controversial over the years. :)


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Hello Tony;

Yep, my point was don't assume. ;)

I know in europe CB packet is pretty big. So big one of those involved is
on the LinFBB coding team. I do supply patches here and there.

Haha, well it works, but has been controversial over the years. :)

I have enough dirt on them to fill a 5 acre field! It's amazing how many
guys don't understand it's nothing more than smtp over RF... same thing that KA9Q brought to the table decades ago. Like I say though:

Call it manuer instead of sh*t, people will buy it up even though the contents are 100% equal!



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On 05-19-21 16:44, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Hello Tony;

Yep, my point was don't assume. ;)

I know in europe CB packet is pretty big. So big one of those involved
is on the LinFBB coding team. I do supply patches here and there.

Yeah, I have read that. Unfortunately, legally, it's dead as a dodo here. Can't even get on the CB eQSO network (can't recall the name of it). :/

Haha, well it works, but has been controversial over the years. :)

I have enough dirt on them to fill a 5 acre field! It's amazing how
many guys don't understand it's nothing more than smtp over RF... same thing that KA9Q brought to the table decades ago. Like I say though:

Yeah, I've run SMTP on KA9Q. I'd have thought the protocol would be a little more cut down on the RF side (to save some bits), but the same basic principle.

Call it manuer instead of sh*t, people will buy it up even though the contents are 100% equal!

That's true, though here in Oz, signs at the farm gate saying "horse poo" still get sales. ;)


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Hey Tony;

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Yeah, I have read that. Unfortunately, legally, it's dead as a dodo
here. Can't even get on the CB eQSO network (can't recall the name of
it). :/

I don't think there's any restrictions here in the states, if there isn't
then it's just not that popular at all.

Yeah, I've run SMTP on KA9Q. I'd have thought the protocol would be a little more cut down on the RF side (to save some bits), but the same basic principle.

SMTP via RF in general is pretty simlar. Postfix, KA9Q, Sendmail, it's all pretty similar, and is transport agnostic. Once the initial handshaking is
done it pretty much sails through fine.

That's true, though here in Oz, signs at the farm gate saying "horse
poo" still get sales. ;)

Now you're just horsing around? :)

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On 05-18-21 22:27, Deepend wrote to Kostie Muirhead <=-

word on that involves these cards called modems.. they hook up to a
phone line and dial phone numbers.. slow but effective ;) jk LoRa

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe. Certainly can't find them around here, the closest living species is the VoIP ATA. :P


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On 05-19-21 20:46, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

I don't think there's any restrictions here in the states, if there
isn't then it's just not that popular at all.

I think FRS radios are used for this purpose in the US, being FM.

SMTP via RF in general is pretty simlar. Postfix, KA9Q, Sendmail, it's
all pretty similar, and is transport agnostic. Once the initial handshaking is done it pretty much sails through fine.

As I said, similar in concept, would like to see the details.

That's true, though here in Oz, signs at the farm gate saying "horse
poo" still get sales. ;)

Now you're just horsing around? :)

Haha.

... When you want to test the depths of a stream, don't use both feet.

Definitely not. ;)


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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

I think FRS radios are used for this purpose in the US, being FM.

I don't think so for our CB freqs.

As I said, similar in concept, would like to see the details.

The biggest issues I see are the initial handshaking no matter which service you're looking to use as that's when all the data between each point is
shared such as MTU! The rule of thumb to prevent fragmenting frames is that
the lower MTU wins... however that's not always how it seems to go. Once all that is established, the rest falls into place fairly quickly. This is why
9600 is the preferred speed, but that's not to say 1200 doesn't fly. I've
even seen 300 baud on HF work to do SMTP mail with axMail :)


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What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe. Certainly can't find them around here, the closest living species is the VoIP ATA. :P

Let’s not be hating on the good ol’ copper lines lol.

Yeah I know lots of places don’t even have them anymore which I kinda think is sad. But a VOIP ATA isn’t the worst thing depending on the connect speed your expecting.
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On 05-20-21 07:09, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

I think FRS radios are used for this purpose in the US, being FM.

I don't think so for our CB freqs.

As I said, similar in concept, would like to see the details.

The biggest issues I see are the initial handshaking no matter which service you're looking to use as that's when all the data between each point is shared such as MTU! The rule of thumb to prevent fragmenting frames is that the lower MTU wins... however that's not always how it seems to go. Once all that is established, the rest falls into place fairly quickly. This is why 9600 is the preferred speed, but that's not
to say 1200 doesn't fly. I've even seen 300 baud on HF work to do SMTP mail with axMail :)

Cool. Yeah I've been around VoIP too long, where packets are tiny and overheads are big as a result, and you pretty much can't go below around 20kbps on the wire, because of the overheads, even if the payload is only 2400bps. :)

... WINDows open: Jump? [Y/y/y]

Haha. :D


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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Cool. Yeah I've been around VoIP too long, where packets are tiny and overheads are big as a result, and you pretty much can't go below
around 20kbps on the wire, because of the overheads, even if the
payload is only 2400bps. :)

I wish VoIP used TCP like IAX instead of UDP/Sip :\


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Deepend wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe. Certainly can't find them around here, the closest living species is the VoIP ATA. :P

Let's not be hating on the good ol' copper lines lol.

Imagine if we had the old POTS lines combined with nationwide free calling, like most cell phone plans have nowadays. The dial-up era was designed
around prohibitive toll charges.

Although, the local bbs.scene grew because of it, and people called local boards that could have gettogethers in meatspace.

"Cyberspace is where you are when you're on the telephone..."
-- William Gibson


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Hello Kurt Weiske!

** On Friday 21.05.21 - 07:05, Kurt Weiske wrote to Deepend:

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe...

Let's not be hating on the good ol' copper lines lol.

Imagine if we had the old POTS lines combined with
nationwide free calling, like most cell phone plans have
nowadays. The dial-up era was designed around prohibitive
toll charges.

Around the time when I was operating a 2-line BBS in late 90's
to 2003, the phone companies already had LD plans that offered
nation-wide unlimited or limited calls for a fixed $20/mo or
so.

I had once such $20 plan for 500 minutes/mo or something like
that.

It worked well for moving mail to two LD hubs for a couple of
nets and for making crash calls to a few LD relatives that I
set up as points.

Although, the local bbs.scene grew because of it, and
people called local boards that could have gettogethers in
meatspace.

Yes.. the local aspect was a particular characeristic of
calling local boards (and the potential to meet the people you
were conversing with) back then.
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On 05-21-21 00:07, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Cool. Yeah I've been around VoIP too long, where packets are tiny and overheads are big as a result, and you pretty much can't go below
around 20kbps on the wire, because of the overheads, even if the
payload is only 2400bps. :)

I wish VoIP used TCP like IAX instead of UDP/Sip :\

So a dropped packet would cause it to get stuck, until it was replaced? ;) IAX is 4569/UDP (or I've been doing port forwarding wrong for years ;) ). One of the reasons VoIP uses such small packets, is latency. :)




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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

So a dropped packet would cause it to get stuck, until it was replaced?
;) IAX is 4569/UDP (or I've been doing port forwarding wrong for years
;) ). One of the reasons VoIP uses such small packets, is latency. :)

Not at all. You just have a better flow. IAX is 4569/TCP however you can use UDP - why is beyond me though. I have 0 jitter on my line *most* of the time
so I don't have an issue with SIP.

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On 05-22-21 20:39, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Not at all. You just have a better flow. IAX is 4569/TCP however you

Every implementation I've seen uses UDP. Maybe IAX _can_ use TCP, but I haven't seen it used that way.

can use UDP - why is beyond me though. I have 0 jitter on my line
*most* of the time so I don't have an issue with SIP.

Yeah jitter is much lower these days.


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Hey Tony;

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Every implementation I've seen uses UDP. Maybe IAX _can_ use TCP, but
I haven't seen it used that way.

Every one I've seen here stateside uses TCP.

Yeah jitter is much lower these days.

Depends on the ISP too... and your pipe.

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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: August Abolins to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 02:12 pm

Now you've done it. This started me into a rabbit hole of LoRa
vs LoRaWAN, TTN, etc..

Haha, yup. It is a rabbit hole, and most material you'll find is very much geared towards IOT implementations without much base level information made available for easy digestion.

When you say "NOT LoRaWan" are you referring to the entities
that have commercialized it?

No, LoRaWan refers to using a gateway to pass information from/to nodes and a network attached service. It's highly reliant on the presence of an IP network and is really meant to allow for remote sensors/switches to interact with a centralized server.

LoRa itself refers to the equipment and modulation and can be used directly for peer to peer links in a manner very analogous to the acoustic modems of the past, or TNCs in the Ham Packet sphere.

While I can see some potential use cases for LoRaWan implementations to be used in the hobby:

1) Providing peer to peer access to local services NOT just
available on the internet is more likely to attract the tinker/electronic hobbyist crowd. IMHO at least.

2) Relying on the internet is not a good way to seed services that are meant to be an alternative to aspects of it (once again, imho).
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Re: Internet transit alternat
By: Brian Rogers to Kostie Muirhead on Sat May 15 2021 08:28 pm

To parallel amateur packet radio, CBers also do packet and I understand a good number of them use my software to do so with. In many cases a license is NOT required. There's also the possibility of building a private 802.11 network not connected to the internet as well.

Yeah, that would be more accessible, but unfortunately there are many jurisdictions (One of which being the country I live in) where data over CB is prohibited. I'm sure there are still people doing it, but trying to encourage people to join you in an endeavour that could lead to some ticketing is probably a strategy I wouldn't put at the top of my list of things I want to try :D
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Re: Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Ward Dossche to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 12:28 pm

IPoAC.

Ah yes, we just need to put sneakers on them to make it the air-mail equivalent of a sneaker net.
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Glad to see you, Kostie!

Re: Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Ward Dossche to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 12:28 pm

IPoAC.

Ah yes, we just need to put sneakers on them to make it the air-mail equivalent of a sneaker net.
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Don't disparage Sneaker Nets... That's exactly what I'm proposing for one project I'm involved with.

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Hello Kostie;

Kostie Muirhead wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Yeah, that would be more accessible, but unfortunately there are many jurisdictions (One of which being the country I live in) where data
over CB is prohibited. I'm sure there are still people doing it, but trying to encourage people to join you in an endeavour that could lead
to some ticketing is probably a strategy I wouldn't put at the top of
my list of things I want to try :D ===

I know in the netherlands CB packet is not only legal but moreso used than amateur radio packet from what I've been told. 802.11 would be more feasible and a LOT faster. Just think of what big ISPs would do if they had to
compete against a massive volunteer network? While that scenario is doubtful it's something I'd love to see. <G>

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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Kostie Muirhead to August Abolins on Tue Jun 01 2021 06:31 am

Howdy,

LoRa itself refers to the equipment and modulation and can be used directly for peer to peer links in a manner very analogous to the
acoustic modems of the past, or TNCs in the Ham Packet sphere.

While I can see some potential use cases for LoRaWan implementations to be used in the hobby:

1) Providing peer to peer access to local services NOT just
available on the internet is more likely to attract the tinker/electronic hobbyist crowd. IMHO at least.

I've been trying to read up on alternative (to the internet) methods of connecting BBSes together - and was wondering if LoRa could be used. Everything I've been reading hints at IOT devices, which I am assuming means low (status like) traffic.

Could LoRa be used to transmit mail packets between peers?

I think the range can be around 20klm - can it?

I know nothing about this technology, so I'm curious...

...δεσ∩

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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sat Jun 05 2021 10:59 am

I've been trying to read up on alternative (to the internet) methods of connecting BBSes together - and was wondering if LoRa could be used.

Yeah, there seem to be a few of us with similar curiosities and ambitions that way. That shows some promise for adoption and hobbyist attraction :)

Everything I've been reading hints at IOT devices, which I am assuming means low (status like) traffic.
Could LoRa be used to transmit mail packets between peers?

The really easily accessible LoRa information, and all the off the shelf modules are geared and directed towards IOT use. And you get far better range and connection reliability at lower link rates. Given that dialup speeds are typical, people tend to write it off for more than signalling use. I have found a couple projects that use peer to peer for exchanging data like sms messages and email. There's no reason it couldn't transfer mail packets, and that's one of the use cases I want to explore. I'd like to have a terminal node via LoRa as well, but even if it ends up having to be more of a mailserver/nntp server type link it could be a huge win I think.

I think the range can be around 20klm - can it?
I know nothing about this technology, so I'm curious...

That's dependent on several factors, but a low data rate link with good antennas with line of site in a rural environment should be able to hit those sorts of distances. From what I've read of experiences of people setting up longer links, 1-10 KM at dialup data rates is fairly achievable in an urban environment.

I'm still largely in the research stage, but have a box of tranceivers coming to start playing with. They've just been in customs processing limbo, which can take a while when dealing with the speed demons in Canadian customs... As soon as I have them in hand I'll be able to experiment more directly and report.
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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Kostie Muirhead to Deon George on Sat Jun 05 2021 09:28 am

I'm still largely in the research stage, but have a box of tranceivers coming to start playing with. They've just been in customs
processing limbo, which can take a while when dealing with the speed demons in Canadian customs... As soon as I have them in hand
I'll be able to experiment more directly and report.

I look forward to see how you go.

You've inspired me to research more - I thought I was looking in a dead end, but I'll keep looking now.

I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

I'm really hoping something with long range 20-200klm (which may not be lora) - since my use case is BBS mail and sadly there arent that many BBSes near me anymore (and I have atleast somebody to interact with) :(

...δεσ∩

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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sun Jun 06 2021 11:05 am

You've inspired me to research more - I thought I was looking in a dead end, but I'll keep looking now.
I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

When I get things figured I intend to at the very least compile and share a bill of materials and information documenting processes. Or see about sourcing or assembly if there's enough desire. Research and play time are first though :)

I'm really hoping something with long range 20-200klm (which may not be lora) - since my use case is BBS mail and sadly there arent that many BBSes near me anymore (and I have atleast somebody to interact with) :(

Yeah, I think the longer links would likely require some form of licenced band usage, but if there's a scenario where local areas can connect with cheap licence free options and then hub with someone handling the long distance hops it would still be fairly attractive - I mean it was when we were all on dialup.
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Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sun Jun 06 2021 11:05 am

I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

I've also been working on a binkp compatible mailer over the last week or so to get a baseline working codebase to play with in the project. Sneak preview:

https://imgur.com/nG9M3W3.png
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On 05 Jun 2021 at 09:28a, Kostie Muirhead pondered and said...

By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sat Jun 05 2021 10:59 am

I've been trying to read up on alternative (to the internet) methods connecting BBSes together - and was wondering if LoRa could be used.

[snip]

I'm still largely in the research stage, but have a box of tranceivers coming to start playing with. They've just been in customs processing limbo, which can

take a while when dealing with the speed demons in Canadian customs...
As soon as I have them in hand I'll be able to experiment more directly and report. ===

I'm also very interested in this too. Let me know if I can be of any help.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)

On 06 Jun 2021 at 11:05a, Deon George pondered and said...

I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

I'm really hoping something with long range 20-200klm (which may not be lora) -

since my use case is BBS mail and sadly there arent that many BBSes near me anymore (and I have atleast somebody to interact with) :(

same feelings here. If we can test and iterate in our respective countries
then this should also help uncover anything regional..
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (3:770/100)