Hello there!

What is the recommended and the maximum distance of an electric guitar cable without the signal loss?

Thanks in advance.


NEALL MERCADO

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"Neall Mercado" wrote to "All" (02 Jan 01 17:41:00)
--- on the topic of "Guitar cable"

What is the recommended and the maximum distance of an electric guitar cable without the signal loss?

Maybe 25 ft or so. Use the lowest capacitance cable you can find.

One way to pick a cable is to plug it into the amp without a guitar and
turning up the volume. Hold the plug shell and slap the cable on the
ground. If it makes a lot of noise try another cable. The quieter the
cable the better.

However, if the guitar has a built-in pre-amp (or a little add-on) then
it can drive much longer cables even cheap noisy types without affecting
the sound.

... I try to use my music to move these people to act... - Jimi Hendrix
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Neall Mercado wrote in a message to All:

Hello there!

What is the recommended and the maximum distance of an electric
guitar cable without the signal loss?

Signal loss isn't usually the big problem, it's the introduction of noise.
I've seen cheap cables that are noisy when less than a meter. I've seen good quality Belden cables that are fine at 5 meters.

I personally can't tell the difference, by ear, in gain (signal level) between equivalent quality cables of 2 to 4 meters. I'm sure there would be some measurable difference using a tone generator and a scope, but you aren't going to hear it unless the longer cable is junk.


C-ya! Rich

--- timEd 1.10.y2k
* Origin: Colossus Galactica, Chino CA (1:218/704)

Hi Neall!

What is the recommended and the maximum distance of an electric guitar cable without the signal loss?

Well, I think, the major problem with long cables is the noise that is introduced to the signal. A good cable should have a good shielding. Then the length doesn't matter too much. I think, most guitar cables are 20' (6 meters) long, but a 10 meter cable shouldn't be a problem either.

Keep in mind, that the guitar cable also influences the sound of the pickup/guitar, since it acts like a capacitor and an inductivity... they form a
low pass filter. So the high frequencies are influenced by the length of the cable in a noticeable way. A longer cable will attenuate the high frequencies more than a short cable. I think, there is a special cable length for every guitar that makes it sound best and I have been experimenting with it some years ago.

Take care
Sven

Sven's Guitar Site: http://home.munich.netsurf.de/Sven.Petersen/
Sven's Guitar Zone: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/9440/





--- Yuppie! v2.12
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Quoting Rich Lockyer to Neall Mercado <=-

Signal loss isn't usually the big problem, it's the introduction of
noise. I've seen cheap cables that are noisy when less than a meter.
I've seen good quality Belden cables that are fine at 5 meters.

What do you think are the factors that introduce noise to those cables?


NEALL MERCADO

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Quoting Mike Ross to Neall Mercado <=-

What is the recommended and the maximum distance of an electric guitar cable without the signal loss?

Maybe 25 ft or so. Use the lowest capacitance cable you can find.

How can I measure the capacitance of the cable?

One way to pick a cable is to plug it into the amp without a guitar
and turning up the volume. Hold the plug shell and slap the cable on
the ground. If it makes a lot of noise try another cable. The quieter
the cable the better.

Oh yes, I've noticed those sounds when my guitar cables are all tied up
and I slapped them on the ground. Thanks for the tip! =)

However, if the guitar has a built-in pre-amp (or a little add-on)
then it can drive much longer cables even cheap noisy types without affecting the sound.

Have you tried using the Boss NS-2 Noise Supressor? Does this stompbox really eliminates noise?


NEALL MERCADO

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Quoting Sven Petersen to Neall Mercado <=-

Well, I think, the major problem with long cables is the noise that is introduced to the signal. A good cable should have a good shielding.
Then the length doesn't matter too much. I think, most guitar cables

Isn't it that the longer the conductor, the higher the resistance?

are 20' (6 meters) long, but a 10 meter cable shouldn't be a problem either.

Thanks a lot, now I have some ideas in choosing the right length of the wire.

=)

NEALL MERCADO

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How can I measure the capacitance of the cable?

Don't bother. If it was really an issue, you'd know, since your volume and tone would be suffering greatly.

Best to stick with shorter cables. If you need a long run, get a good wireless
system. This is the reason so many companies make 18' 6" cables now.
That's a good length for a guitar cable. Not too much impedance.

Oh yes, I've noticed those sounds when my guitar cables are all tied up and I slapped them on the ground. Thanks for the tip! =)

That's usually a poor shield. A cheap/bad shield will allow radio interference, will make noise when the cable is flexed, and is just generally a
headache.

It's like anything... if you got it cheap, there's a reason. Spend a little more, and go with quality brands (Whirlwind, ProCo, Rapco, Belden, etc) and you'll be better off. They'll also last longer, which is an added bonus.

Have you tried using the Boss NS-2 Noise Supressor?
Does this stompbox really eliminates noise?

Everything you add to the signal chain adds noise, even a "Noise Supressor".
I can't really remember this unit, but I'm sure it's a simple gate. It cuts off the signal at a certain level. Why is this bad? Think of playing a note, and letting it decay naturally. If the gate is set to high to get rid of the noise, it's also going to cut off the end of that note too. That sounds very ugly.

If you're getting so much noise, find out why, and fix it. Don't put band-aids
on it. :-)

--gary

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Hi Neall!

Isn't it that the longer the conductor, the higher the resistance?

Well, the resistance of the cable doesn't matter a lot. It is very low anyway. A cable of 20 meters might have a resitance of 1 Ohm. And the input resitcance of an amplifier is at least some 100 000 Ohms. The loss caused by the resistance is not noticeable. What matters is only the low pass formed by the inductivity and capacity of the cable and the possible noise introduction due to a weak shielding.

Take care
Sven

Sven's Guitar Site: http://home.munich.netsurf.de/Sven.Petersen/
Sven's Guitar Zone: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/9440/

--- Yuppie! v2.12
* Origin: A bidet? Oopsie... (1:218/704.4)

Hi Neall!

What do you think are the factors that introduce noise to those cables?

That is a shielding that is not very tight. Many "professional" audio cables (especially microphone cables) even have a double shielding to prevent noise.

Take care
Sven

Sven's Guitar Site: http://home.munich.netsurf.de/Sven.Petersen/
Sven's Guitar Zone: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/9440/

--- Yuppie! v2.12
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"Sven Petersen" wrote to "Neall Mercado" (08 Jan 01 23:02:57)
--- on the topic of "Re: Guitar cable"

What do you think are the factors that introduce noise to those cables?

That is a shielding that is not very tight. Many "professional" audio cables (especially microphone cables) even have a double shielding to prevent noise.
Take care
Sven

When a cable is moved and its noise is heard this means an electrical
current is being mechanically created between the insulator and the
shield. It's a piezo-electric effect. More expensive cables place a
textile shield surrounding the inner conductor and inside the outer
shield braid. This prevents mechanical currents from being amplified.

... If Milli Vanilli fell in the woods, who'd make the sound?
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"Sven Petersen" wrote to "Neall Mercado" (08 Jan 01 23:00:57)
--- on the topic of "Re: Guitar cable"

Well, the resistance of the cable doesn't matter a lot. It is very low anyway. A cable of 20 meters might have a resitance of 1 Ohm. And the input resitcance of an amplifier is at least some 100 000 Ohms. The
loss caused by the resistance is not noticeable. What matters is only
the low pass formed by the inductivity and capacity of the cable and
the possible noise introduction due to a weak shielding.
Take care

The cable inductance is negligible when compared to the pickup's own.
What makes a big sonic difference is the capacitance. In fact 100 K ohms
is a rather low amplifier impedance. An amplifier's input should be at
least 350 K ohms or more in order to preserve the pickup's clarity.

For example a dual coil pickup is designed, with respect to its stray capacitance and inductance, to work best into about 250 K ohms and a
single coil pickup about half that value. So an amplifier input having
100 K ohms may be unbalancing the dual coil pickup's tone though less
for a single coil.

Cable capacitance however has a great effect on tone. One way to reduce
the effect of capacitance is to set the guitar's volume at mid rotation
(5) and turning up the amp's gain to compensate.

This in effect reduces the resistance on the cable to about 30 K ohms
and this value is much less affected by capacitance. For example with
0.001 uF cable capacitance with 30 K ohms forms a filter at about 5 K Hz
which has enough response to preserve tone clarity.

An often cited mod is to place a small cap between the volume pot's hot terminal to the wiper contact. This will create a capacitive divider
which preserves clarity. However this only works well in a single spot.
The one side-effect is that at low volume it tends to boost the treble.
Values for this volume bypass cap vary in the range from about 100 pF to
0.001 uF and is ultimately dependant on personal taste.


... Bring back the dobro to rock n roll!
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Neall Mercado wrote in a message to Rich Lockyer:

What do you think are the factors that introduce noise to those
cables?

Poor shielding, cheap connectors (I use only high-end switchcraft when I make my own), poor solder joints... any number of things.

The fabric-braided "Spectraflex" cables are among my favorites.



C-ya! Rich

--- timEd 1.10.y2k
* Origin: Colossus Galactica, Chino CA (1:218/704)

Neall Mercado wrote in a message to Rich Lockyer:

Have you tried using those "vacuum-sealed" cables?

No... sounds like marketing hype.

Does making the cable "vacuum" makes it noiseless?

It will reduce corrosion, which will in turn reduce the degradation as the cable ages.

Yes... it is marketing hype. For one thing, the integrity of the vacuum cannot
be maintained in a flexible cable... there goes 100% of the benefit.
The phone company uses a dry-nitrogen purge on their lines, which also reduces corrosion but does not require a vacuum. It is much easier to maintain a secondary gas AT 1-ATM than it is to maintain 0-ATM, but note, it still has to be maintained... every few blocks you may notice green gas cylinders by the side of the road chained to a utility pole... those are the cylinders that charge the cable.

Could be a cool stage-catch to have a small nitrogen cylinder on your strap where a wireless woud normally be :)



C-ya! Rich

--- timEd 1.10.y2k
* Origin: Colossus Galactica, Chino CA (1:218/704)

Quoting Rich Lockyer to Neall Mercado <=-

C-ya! Rich

-!- timEd 1.10.y2k
! Origin: Colossus Galactica, Chino CA (1:218/704)
@PATH: 1307/5 218/704 2410/400 140/1 10/3

Rich,
Could you please email me at net218nc@yahoo.com
Your system was dropped a few months ago, as no one could
contact you. The number listed in the nodelist is now a
voice number for someone else which doesn't own a computer.

I am sorry, I have to post this information here. I would like
to do everything we can to correct the problem.

Al Robres


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