Paul Lawson wrote to Martin Ridgley <=-

innovative players who achieve lasting recognition, even though
they might have struggled to reach an audience at the time.

Yep, guys like Django Rheinhardt (sp) and Chariel Christiansen
come to mind, not that I'm an authority on music history... I
think a lot of the problem is that many think the high water
mark for jazz was the late '50s early '60s with players like
Coltrane, Miles and Montgomery pushing the envelope.

True. I'm no authority on music history either, but it seems that
for some reason, during that same period, there was a lot of interest
in jazz amongst the college and university crowds. Now it seems to
be mainly alternative pop/rock.

A lot of players are happy playing standards. I think the spirit
of jazz is in constant exploration. Miles being the prime example
of this. he never stopped re-inventing himself musically.

Agreed.

So, who would you list among the most innovative jazz guitarists
of today?

Tough question... As far as true innovation, in the sense of
reinventing the instrument or music, the only guys I can think
of off-hand is Stanley Jordan (definitley) and John Scofield
(arguably). There's many players that I consider distictive and
Very influential but not sure I could mount an effective argument
for them being truly innovative: Pat Metheny, Mike Stern,
Al DiMeola, Alan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin. Hell, most of
those guys would be considered "seniors" these days. Sadly, I'm
not in touch with the up-to-the-minute state of jazz. How would
you answer the question?

I'm afraid I'm in much the same boat that you are, Paul. I'm not
really up to date with many of the more recent players on the scene.
I actually asked the question in the hopes of getting some tips and
opinions on some of them from *you*!
Let's see... of the players you mentioned above, I've really only
listened to Metheny, Holdsworth, and McLaughlin. I do have one album
by John Scofield - "Time On My Hands" (1990) - which I quite like.
I heard some of Al DiMeola's early work, but his playing didn't do
much for me and I haven't paid much attention to him since the '70s.
Several people have recommended Stanley Jordan to me, but I have
yet to hear him. Care to suggest a good title to start with?
Another one who's been recommended recently is Birelli Lagrene.
Can anyone here tell me anything about his style, and/or suggest an
album?

One of the most innovative players I've heard in years is still
Lenny Breau, whose best work dates from the mid '70s to early '80s.
Sadly, he died in 1984 at the far-too-young age of 43. He was quite
a different cup of tea from the other players we've been talking
about, though. He had an almost classical style at times, often
playing alone (and often on 7-string guitars - either nylon-string
acoustic, or electric) and accompanying himself with a truly
astonishing mastery of bass lines, chords, and harmonics.
He used to say that he approached guitar playing as if it were a
piano - always having two things going on at once. He's sometimes
compared to Joe Pass in that respect, but they are very different
players. Actually, that reminds me ...hang on a sec, I have to find
this great quote... <goes searching through CD liner notes>

Okay, a writer for the Kansas City Star named Terry Teachout had
this to say about Lenny Breau:
"Breau is one of those musicians who, like Art Tatum, hardly even
needs a rhythm section... his warm, almost acoustic sound and rhythmic
poise make his only serious peer in the field of solo jazz guitar,
Joe Pass, sound hopelessly mechanical."
(...from the liner notes to "Mo' Breau" - recorded in 1977/78)

Put like that, it sounds kind of amusing, but I have to agree. I'm
a fan of Joe Pass too, but I find Lenny Breau's solo playing much more
fluid and 'musical', if I can use that rather vague term.

Anyway, in recent years not many people in my social circle have
been into jazz - one reason why I'm not up on some of the new players
on the scene - so it's great to be able to chat with someone about it.

Cheers,
Martin
~~~~~~~~

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Martin Ridgley wrote in a message to Paul Lawson:

Paul Lawson wrote to Martin Ridgley <=-

True. I'm no authority on music history either, but it seems
that for some reason, during that same period, there was a lot of interest in jazz amongst the college and university crowds. Now
it seems to be mainly alternative pop/rock.

I think at the time jazz was the cutting edge of non-conformity, ouside the box and all that. I think that's the primary appeal to the college crowd.

I'm afraid I'm in much the same boat that you are, Paul. I'm
not really up to date with many of the more recent players on the
scene. I actually asked the question in the hopes of getting some
tips and opinions on some of them from *you*!

Most of the people I know who listen to jazz prefer the "smooth" or pop jazz varieties. Hrd core jazz and fusion lovesae damned hard to find. Most of
the players I know about I found from bying CDs blind. It's been a long time since I've bought anything unknown. Too many CDs in the buy cue as it is these
days..

Let's see... of the players you mentioned above, I've really
only listened to Metheny, Holdsworth, and McLaughlin. I do have

Metheny is my favorite player. If his name is on the liner notes, I'll buy it.

one album by John Scofield - "Time On My Hands" (1990) - which I

Tt' pretty indicative of most of his playing. I like Scofield and buy most of his CDs when I see them. His earlier stuff is more fusiony. Of his early stuff, my favorite is "Still Warm". I recently picked up (what I believe) is his latest called "Scofield A Go Go" f I recall. Very funky, very reminiscent of his older material.

quite like. I heard some of Al DiMeola's early work, but his
playing didn't do much for me and I haven't paid much attention to

Yeah he has that effect on lots of people. I just love his early stuff! Very firey player and the technique is scary! Cuts like "Dark Eye Tango" (Casino) and "ritmo de la noche" <sp> (can't recall which CD) are high water marks in latin style fusion IMHO.

him since the '70s. Several people have recommended Stanley
Jordan to me, but I have yet to hear him. Care to suggest a good

Jordan is interesting if nothing else for his technique. he literally plays guitar like a piano. I saw him on Austin City limits several years ago.
He had a guitar strapped on and another on a keyboard type stand and was playing both at the same time. He plays bass rythum and lead at the same time tapping with both hands. Comparing his tapping technique to VanHalen is roughly akin to comparing a toddlers finger painting to a Monet. His tone blows, very tinny, I think due mainly to the technique employed though but he has done some very nice stuff. I have his first two CDs and prefere his first (self titled).

is Birelli Lagrene. Can anyone here tell me anything about his
style, and/or suggest an album?

I'm not familiar with his playing at all but the name is familiar...

Put like that, it sounds kind of amusing, but I have to agree.
I'm a fan of Joe Pass too, but I find Lenny Breau's solo playing
much more fluid and 'musical', if I can use that rather vague
term.

That's something I'll have to look for.

Anyway, in recent years not many people in my social circle have
been into jazz - one reason why I'm not up on some of the new
players on the scene - so it's great to be able to chat with
someone about it.

As I said above, I'm about in the same boat. I used to exchange cassettes
of favorite players/pieces with a guy on the echo years ago. It was a lot of fun and I picked up a group of new players that way. Technology marching on, I
can now do the same with CDs. If you'd be interested, I'd be happy to exchange
some favorites with you. My E-mail is plawson@concentric.net. Drop me a line with your address and I'll put a CD togetherof some of my favorite players/pieces.

Paul

--- timEd 1.10.y2k
* Origin: Paul's point, Salt Lake City, Utah. (1:218/704.16)

Paul Lawson wrote to Martin Ridgley <=-

Martin Ridgley wrote in a message to Paul Lawson:

I'm no authority on music history either, but it seems that
for some reason, during that same period, there was a lot of
interest in jazz amongst the college and university crowds.

I think at the time jazz was the cutting edge of non-conformity,
ouside the box and all that. I think that's the primary appeal
to the college crowd.

Good point. I guess the alternative at the time was folk music,
which also seemed to have wide appeal on college and university
campuses - partially due, I suspect, to the 'protest' element in
many of the lyrics.

...of the players you mentioned above, I've really only listened
to Metheny, Holdsworth, and McLaughlin.

Metheny is my favorite player.
If his name is on the liner notes, I'll buy it.

I've only got about 5 or 6 of his albums, all from the 1970s, and
all on the ECM label. I like 'em all, but something - possibly Lyle
Mays keyboard work - turned me off him around that time, and I stopped
buying his albums.
So, would you care to recommend anything more recent - or would that
entail listing almost his entire catalogue? ;-)

I heard some of Al DiMeola's early work, but his playing didn't
do much for me and I haven't paid much attention to him since...

Yeah he has that effect on lots of people. I just love his early
stuff! Very firey player and the technique is scary!

Yeah, you're right about his technique. What I heard of that early
stuff still left me kind of cold for some reason, though.

Several people have recommended Stanley Jordan to me, but I have
yet to hear him. Care to suggest a good

Jordan is interesting if nothing else for his technique. he
literally plays guitar like a piano. I saw him on Austin City
limits several years ago. He had a guitar strapped on and another
on a keyboard type stand and was playing both at the same time.

Wow! That sounds intriguing!

He plays bass rhythm and lead at the same time tapping with both
hands. Comparing his tapping technique to VanHalen is roughly
akin to comparing a toddlers finger painting to a Monet. His
tone blows, very tinny, I think due mainly to the technique
employed though but he has done some very nice stuff. I have
his first two CDs and prefer his first (self titled).

I'm sure he could do something about the tone artificially if he
wanted to.
I saw a guy named Trey Gunn last year who plays with Robert Fripp
and King Crimson. He plays Warr 'touch' guitars and does a lot of
stuff by fretting without picking, sometimes tapping. His tone is
big and warm, but I'm sure it's all due to the rack full of effects.
He also sometimes plays the Chapman stick, which may be a fairly
obvious alternative for players who like to tap.

I used to exchange cassettes of favorite players/pieces with a
guy on the echo years ago. It was a lot of fun and I picked up
a group of new players that way. Technology marching on, I can
now do the same with CDs. If you'd be interested, I'd be happy
to exchange some favorites with you.

<sigh> I'm afraid I'm still in the dark ages when it comes to
computer technology. Believe it or not, I still don't have either
a CD/ROM, or a burner. ;-\
I'll send you an email anyway though, 'cause this is probably
off-topic for the echo.

Martin
~~~~~~~~

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Martin Ridgley wrote in a message to Paul Lawson:

Paul Lawson wrote to Martin Ridgley <=-

Good point. I guess the alternative at the time was folk music,
which also seemed to have wide appeal on college and university
campuses - partially due, I suspect, to the 'protest' element in
many of the lyrics.

I'd agree with your assesment.

I've only got about 5 or 6 of his albums, all from the 1970s,
and all on the ECM label. I like 'em all, but something -
possibly Lyle Mays keyboard work - turned me off him around that
time, and I stopped buying his albums.

I like lyle mays, I had one of his solo efforts a while back and it was interesting to see how much of the Metheny group sound was his. Wow from the '70s, you have his real early stuff. Try checking out Travels, it's a live double CD that highlights most of his '80s work. For studio I think his best '80s is "Off Ramp" If it was possible to wear out a CD, my copy would be through. Towards the tail end of the '80s he got onto a brazillian kick for a bit. Not to the Lee Ritenour extent but many of the rythums have a heavy latin
feel. I like "still life(talking)" from that period. The best he has to offer
from most of the '90s are projects that don't include the full Metheny group. He did a CD with Gery Burton (he got his start in his band) called reunion thats fantastic, another project with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland called "Questions and Answers" thats mostly bop and aslo fantastic. His last recording is called Quartet featuring the core of the Metheny group very nice with some interesting explorations (can't think of a better word) on it. The last full Metheny group CD is also interesting, he seems to be getting into much more isoteric stuff using some unique instruments. As I said I'm a huge Metheny fan so take that under advisement. I think he's the most versatile player out there and one of the finest just straight players I've ever heard. Listen to his phrasing, it's enough to make you cry.

Yeah, you're right about his technique. What I heard of that
early stuff still left me kind of cold for some reason, though.

He has that effect on lots of people, I just love his tangos. I saw him in Italy about '86. You know he plays flamenco with a pick!!! Now that's a right hand!

<sigh> I'm afraid I'm still in the dark ages when it comes to computer technology. Believe it or not, I still don't have either
a CD/ROM, or a burner. ;-\

Wow! You must be running DOS and maybe windows 3.1. :)

I'll send you an email anyway though, 'cause this is probably off-topic for the echo.

Sounds good, I'll look forward to hearing from you!!!

Paul

--- timEd 1.10.y2k
* Origin: Paul's point, Salt Lake City, Utah. (1:218/704.16)

Paul Lawson wrote to Martin Ridgley <=-

Martin Ridgley wrote in a message to Paul Lawson, re: Pat Metheny:

I've only got about 5 or 6 of his albums, all from the 1970s, and
all on the ECM label. I like 'em all, but something - possibly
Lyle Mays keyboard work - turned me off him around that time, and
I stopped buying his albums.

I like lyle mays, I had one of his solo efforts a while back and it
was interesting to see how much of the Metheny group sound was his.

I think I got turned off him when I saw them live in about 1980, or
so. His style and choice of sounds didn't seem to suit what Metheny
was doing at all.

Wow from the '70s, you have his real early stuff.

Yeah, well it was a natural thing, really - he appeared on the scene
just around the time my friends and I were really getting into jazz.
I mean, I was just discovering people like Ellington, Dave Brubeck,
Miles Davis, and The Modern Jazz Quartet, but we were also listening
to the new, more progressive artists who were kept coming up - Larry
Coryell, John MacLaughlin & the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report,
etc. Being a bass player, I heard about Jaco Pastorius pretty early
on - maybe even before he joined Weather Report, I'm not sure. In
any case, there wasn't much stuff by him on the market yet, so I was
searching for anything I could find. One of those things was an
album by Pat Metheny called, "Bright Sized Life". And that's what
got me into him. I bought it for the bass player, but soon began to
realize I loved this new guitar player's style, too. So I kept buying
his albums as they came out for a few years after that.

Try checking out Travels, it's a live double CD that highlights most
of his '80s work. For studio I think his best '80s is "Off Ramp"
If it was possible to wear out a CD, my copy would be through.

Noted. That's as good a recommendation as any. ;-)

Towards the tail end of the '80s he got onto a brazillian kick
for a bit. Not to the Lee Ritenour extent but many of the
rythums have a heavy latin feel. I like "still life(talking)"
from that period.

Yeah, I might like some of that stuff, but over all I think it's
best if avoid it until I get chance to hear some of it.

The best he has to offer from most of the '90s are projects that
don't include the full Metheny group. He did a CD with Gery
Burton (he got his start in his band) called reunion thats
fantastic, another project with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland
called "Questions and Answers" thats mostly bop and aslo
fantastic.

That last one sounds intriguing to me.

His last recording is called Quartet featuring the core of the
Metheny group very nice with some interesting explorations (can't
think of a better word) on it. The last full Metheny group CD
is also interesting, he seems to be getting into much more
isoteric stuff using some unique instruments. As I said I'm a
huge Metheny fan so take that under advisement.

Yep. Trust me... I'm not going to go out and buy his whole
catalogue tomorrow. But a couple of things you've mentioned do
sound interesting to me. ;-)

I think he's the most versatile player out there and one of the
finest just straight players I've ever heard. Listen to his
phrasing, it's enough to make you cry.

Well, I did like his mid-to-late '70s stuff a lot, but I have to
admit that I haven't listened to him much since about 1980. I'm
putting "Off Ramp" and "Questions and Answers" on my acquisition
list. I think that ought to make for a good reintroduction.

<sigh> I'm afraid I'm still in the dark ages when it comes to
computer technology. Believe it or not, I still don't have either
a CD/ROM, or a burner. ;-\

Wow! You must be running DOS and maybe windows 3.1. :)

Close. I'm actually cruising now with Windoze 95 - but that's
still a couple of generations behind the leaders. And my hardware
is almost prehistoric! Still, it works for my simple needs and
that's all that really matters - until the next time it crashes! ;-\

I'll send you an email anyway though, 'cause this is probably
off-topic for the echo.

Sounds good, I'll look forward to hearing from you!!!

Oops again... I better make a note to actually do that one of
these days. Talk to you soon, Paul....

Martin
~~~~~~~~

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