Hello!


Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client
option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting
information. The Zoom page says:

"The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

But then further in it says:

"You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom meeting
or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you
have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in
advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data
just the same.

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?




../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)

Hi August,

On 2020-04-10 10:45:00, you wrote to All:

Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting information. The Zoom page says:

"The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

But then further in it says:

"You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom meeting or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot of bad
publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello Wilfred!

** 10.04.20 - 17:51, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot
of bad publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of
information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or
without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

The Zoom docs/manual does not mention anything about security/privacy. I missed that the first time. But now that you mention it, the privacy
aspect is completely missing.

It does boast "private" sessions.. but that is not the same as encrypted
or truly private.

Zoom seems to cater to the "if it's free, it can't hurt (I have nothing to hide), and it's fun!" mentality (aka, the mezmerized uneducated minions).

In return for "free", they probably take the position to collect the meta data or include a bot on your pc to monitor your use.

OTOH, https://jitsi.org/ promises privacy. It might the better choice if anyone cares about privacy.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)

Hello Wilfred!

** 10.04.20 - 17:51, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot
of bad publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of
information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or
without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

I found a report of that matter here:

https://protonmail.com/blog/zoom-privacy-issues/

It highlights the following paragraph in the Privacy Policy:

"In its privacy policy, under the entry "Does Zoom sell Personal Data?" the policy says, "Depends what you mean by `sell.'" To summarize Zoom's policy, they say they don't sell personal data for money to third parties, but it does share personal data with third parties for those companies' "business purposes." In its privacy policy, it gives the example that it
may pass your personal information to Google."

But who reads the Privacy Policy, to see that?

So they don't "sell", but they give it away. Yeah, sure I'll believe that
if I was born yesterday. They don't do that without some form of monetary advantage. Otherwise, what's the point? Free tickets to concerts? Free Amazon Prime accounts? Everything in business has a "value" and it must
be given a $ value. That's essentially a "sell".


"An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a
substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does not
have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped it when they were outted.

Pathetic.

The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their
practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

Happy Zooming - if you dare.




../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)

Hi August,

On 2020-04-10 13:18:00, you wrote to me:

It does boast "private" sessions.. but that is not the same as
encrypted or truly private.

Someone said you should regard the "private" video conferences you have: as a loud conversation in a public place. If you don't mind that, you could use Zoom.

Zoom seems to cater to the "if it's free, it can't hurt (I have
nothing to hide), and it's fun!" mentality (aka, the mezmerized
uneducated minions).

Maybe the stupid should be protected against the devious?

OTOH, https://jitsi.org/ promises privacy. It might the better
choice if anyone cares about privacy.

Jitsi was sort of recommended by a Dutch privacy organisation, as being the least bad choice privacy wise. Given the small amount of time they could spend on investigating the alternatives for Zoom.

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello August!

10 Apr 20 10:45, you wrote to all:

So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download
any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

I don't have internet in this machine , but i think that zoom is not very safe lately , search in google "Thousands of Zoom video calls left exposed on open web" , few days ago

regards



Thierry


--- FMail/386 1.60.GPL
* Origin: 386_40mhz-8MB_ram/DOS6.22/IBM_TCP-IP/Binkd-DOS/Fmail1.6/ (4:900/106)

August Abolins wrote to All <=-

Hello!

Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting information. The Zoom page says:

"The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

But then further in it says:

"You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom
meeting or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

I've seen increasing use of Zoom at my agency for training classes. My colleagues' kids connect to their schools during lockdown via zoom sessions. When i was doing ground school for my instrument rating, and my CFII was out of town, he hosted the sessions on zoom.

Otherwise, I haven't had a chance to read the MS-ISAC report on it. If I do get a chance I'll reply again.

... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)

August Abolins wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

"An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does
not have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

I highly doubt they stopped sending data. It must be a huge financial reward for doing so. Today's internet is all about selling analytics data. Glad I never jumped into that category because I don't think I could live with myself.

THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped
it when they were outted.

I'm sure they're still sending the data, but in a more obfuscated manner. Instead of sending directly to Facebook, they fetch the data to their own servers and batch it from there.

Pathetic.

Quite, but this is today's internet. And that's why I still use BBS's now more than ever.

The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

I recall reading somewhere that protonmail's encryption is so advanced that it's the only service the NSA hasn't been able to decrypt. I'm too lazy to fact check that bit though, so it could be overinflated.

Happy Zooming - if you dare.

I really don't think any of those services keep the data private. I'm sure they're all guilty.

... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)

Daniel wrote to August Abolins <=-

August Abolins wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

"An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does
not have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

I highly doubt they stopped sending data. It must be a huge financial reward for doing so. Today's internet is all about selling analytics
data. Glad I never jumped into that category because I don't think I
could live with myself.

THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped
it when they were outted.

I'm sure they're still sending the data, but in a more obfuscated
manner. Instead of sending directly to Facebook, they fetch the data to their own servers and batch it from there.

Pathetic.

Quite, but this is today's internet. And that's why I still use BBS's
now more than ever.

The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

I recall reading somewhere that protonmail's encryption is so advanced that it's the only service the NSA hasn't been able to decrypt. I'm too lazy to fact check that bit though, so it could be overinflated.

Happy Zooming - if you dare.

I really don't think any of those services keep the data private. I'm
sure they're all guilty.

... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)

Has anyone used Jitsi? It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one which is better for those with privacy concerns.

My daughters school was using Zoom, but changed to another platform due to privacy and security concerns.


--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hi Borax!

01 May 2020 22:10, from Borax Man -> Daniel:

Has anyone used Jitsi?

yes

It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one
which is better for those with privacy concerns.

It works great, and I love it.

CU, Ricsi

... If you don't go to other men's funerals, they won't go to yours.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Squirrel: Just a tree rat with a good PR agent. (2:310/31)

Hello Borax,

My daughters school was using Zoom, but changed to another platform
due to privacy and security concerns.

Here in British Columbia where I live Zoom was purchased somehow, a license probably before the pandemic. It would have been very useful since the schools here were closed and still are but zoom hasn't been used for the most part because of those concerns.

Ttyl :-),
Al

--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

01 May 2020 22:10, from Borax Man -> Daniel:

Has anyone used Jitsi?

yes

It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one
which is better for those with privacy concerns.

It works great, and I love it.

CU, Ricsi

... If you don't go to other men's funerals, they won't go to yours.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Squirrel: Just a tree rat with a good PR agent. (2:310/31)

I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default". Mindshare seems
to matter most to many.


... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.29
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hi Borax!

01 May 2020 22:29, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default".

You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

CU, Ricsi

... The reason why I work so hard is because I'm too nervous to steal.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Out of my mind. Back in five minutes. (2:310/31)

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

01 May 2020 22:29, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default".

You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

CU, Ricsi

... The reason why I work so hard is because I'm too nervous to steal.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Out of my mind. Back in five minutes. (2:310/31)

WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse of the browser. Curses to the man who man who thought you could use the web to create apps!

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hi Borax!

02 May 2020 19:31, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any
additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse
of the browser.

I completely disagree.
It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!

Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
the web to create apps!

Why curse that genius?

CU, Ricsi

... He was so narrow-minded he could see through a keyhole with both eyes!
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: An ass thinks one thing, his rider another. (2:310/31)

Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
By: Borax Man to Richard Menedetter on Fri May 01 2020 22:29:00

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

please sign your messages with your real name if your software cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

fidonet INTERNET echo moderator


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

02 May 2020 19:31, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any
additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse
of the browser.

I completely disagree.
It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!

They were never designed to be application platforms. That is why browsers take gigabytes of ram and need modern computers. All that functionality has to be put into every browser, even if someone just wants to render plain HTML.

Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
the web to create apps!

Why curse that genius?

Because it solved the wrong problem. The problem was cross platform graphical apps. Browsers were abused to provide this, then we had bloat as all this added functionality had to be added in. Thankfully with mobiles, we are seeing proper dedicated
"apps", specific front ends with clear APIs, which is how it should have been in the first place. That is, you have a well documented API, and anyone can write any program using it.

Why reinvent a graphical interface, when the OS already has one?

CU, Ricsi

... He was so narrow-minded he could see through a keyhole with both
eyes! --- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: An ass thinks one thing, his rider another. (2:310/31)

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.29
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
By: mark lewis to Borax Man on Sat May 02 2020 08:56 am

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

please sign your messages with your real name if your software cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a pseudonym. It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

Dennis Katsonis
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hi Borax!

02 May 2020 12:34, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

I completely disagree.
It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!

They were never designed to be application platforms.

That is not correct.
They were not designed for it in the beginning.
They ARE designed for it for a long time.

For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

That is why browsers take gigabytes of ram and need modern computers.

Yes ... it cannot compete with an implementation on hand optimized assembly. But it is a great solution for me.

I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
On Linux, Windows, whatever.
No need to install anything. GREAT!

All that functionality has to be put into every browser, even if
someone just wants to render plain HTML.

Yes.
But as the same tech is used by HTML5 Websites, you NEED to include it anyways, otherwise you will not be able to view websites made in the last few years.

See for example the visual 6502 simulator ... running only in your browser: http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html

Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
the web to create apps!

Why curse that genius?

Because it solved the wrong problem.

It is a great solution for me.

The problem was cross platform graphical apps.
Browsers were abused to provide this

No ... the already existing functionality for HTML5 and JS was USED for that. And it is a GREAT solution for multi platform apps.
So good that Google built a line of Chromebooks around it.
(Which I am NOT fond of, as you ONLY have browser apps, but it is a good solution for some.)

Hell ... even of the apps I use over 90% is Firefox.
And some terminal windows to my Linux server.
But even those migrate to the browser with Shell in a box.
At work outbound SSH is disallowed.
But I can use web ... so I go to my shell in a box instance and I am logged in to my server.

That is, you have a well documented API, and anyone can write
any program using it.

The browser APIs ARE well documented. (better than anything else).
For example see my link to WebRTC.

And many, many people ARE writing browser based programs like Jitsi.
Thanks god!! (BTW. there is also an Android and IOS version of Jitsi, and maybe even a Windows version.)

Why reinvent a graphical interface, when the OS already has one?

It is not reinvented.
The browser also had one for a long time.
So the correct question is, why not use the GUI that best fits your needs, of the 2 existing interfaces.

And simply pointing your browser at a URL to start your videoconference is a GREAT way, when compared to having to install a dedicated app for something that you might only use occasionally.

For me it is a great solution!

CU, Ricsi

... The best thing about the good old days is that they're gone.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: The paper is always strongest at the perforations. (2:310/31)

Re: Zoom anyone?
By: Richard Menedetter to Borax Man on Sun May 03 2020 08:52 am

That is not correct.
They were not designed for it in the beginning.
They ARE designed for it for a long time.

Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered. The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like QT.

We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi, there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

Yes ... it cannot compete with an implementation on hand optimized assembly. But it is a great solution for me.

I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
On Linux, Windows, whatever.
No need to install anything. GREAT!

Those functions will remain. What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications. YouTube will remain web based (I do use a client program for it from time tie time), but only because it is a 'natural' browser target.

Yes.
But as the same tech is used by HTML5 Websites, you NEED to include it anyways, otherwise you will not be able to view websites made in the last few years.

HTML5 is a step forward. Standardisation and open codecs. Much better than propreietary plugins.

Dennis Katsonis
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
By: Borax Man to mark lewis on Sat May 02 2020 21:44:53

please sign your messages with your real name if your software
cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a
pseudonym.

yeah, most fidonet echos require/desire/request real names...

It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

generally speaking, BBSes have a sysop maintained configuration setting for each message area whether to use the alias or the real name of the poster... this doesn't really work if the user signed up and used just an alias or used an alias and a "fake name"... it is what it is, in this day and time, though... easiest to just sign the post with your real name ;)

Dennis Katsonis

thanks, dennis... it is nice to meet you :)


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Hi Borax!

03 May 2020 07:20, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

They ARE designed for it for a long time.

Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered.

We agree to disagree :)

The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and
this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a
few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps
is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like
QT.

I did not mean that it is the best solution for everything.
But there are a lot of really, really good usecases.

We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi,
there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer
applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

I do not know.
99% of the programs I use privately are browser and terminal.

I used to use a specialized mailclient, now I use webmail.

For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

I do not use it, so I am not that familiar.
But it seems that it is a small linux system, where linux is hidden, and the only shell is the browser.
It is used to view webpages and to run applications.

What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications.

At work we have a lot of webapps.
Most of them are not very well made.
But usually because they did not put in a lot of effort, or they used really bad SAP Webthingy (whatever that is called.)

But naturally I agree that huge specialized applications can be better optimized if they are local apps.

But something like this is still extremely powerful: https://www.freephototool.com/

CU, Ricsi

... It is better to have a permanent income that to be fascinating.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: A friend is someone who knows me and likes me anyway. (2:310/31)

On 03/05/2020 1:26 p.m., Richard Menedetter : Borax Man wrote:

But naturally I agree that huge specialized applications can be
better optimized if they are local apps.

But something like this is still extremely powerful:
https://www.freephototool.com/

How does that place benefit from offering it free? Maybe something is afoot!




--
Kad esat sagriezis maizi, to vairs nevarat salikt.

--- TB(Stealth)/Win7
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi August!

03 May 2020 22:33, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

But something like this is still extremely powerful:
https://www.freephototool.com/

How does that place benefit from offering it free?

I never used it before.
I have heared that there is a pay web version of Adobe Photoshop.
When searching for it I found that.

Maybe something is afoot!

I do not think so.
I am sure that there is a pay version with more features or something similar.

Same thing with certain GPL software that is developed by commercial companies. Eg. you get support if you pay a support contract.

If you read the details I am sure you will see their business model.

CU, Ricsi

... If he were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Friendship is like money, easier made than kept. (2:310/31)

Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

Hi Borax!

03 May 2020 07:20, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

They ARE designed for it for a long time.

Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered.

We agree to disagree :)

I don't think we disagree that much. I was developing what was to be a web app with the backing of a development company. Much of this opinion is based on discussion with a key developer there who has worked with this technology.

The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and
this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a
few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps
is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like
QT.

I did not mean that it is the best solution for everything.
But there are a lot of really, really good usecases.

We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi,
there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer
applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

I do not know.
99% of the programs I use privately are browser and terminal.

I used to use a specialized mailclient, now I use webmail.

For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

I do not use it, so I am not that familiar.
But it seems that it is a small linux system, where linux is hidden,
and the only shell is the browser.
It is used to view webpages and to run applications.

What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications.

At work we have a lot of webapps.
Most of them are not very well made.
But usually because they did not put in a lot of effort, or they used really bad SAP Webthingy (whatever that is called.)

Interesting that we would have such different experienced.

But naturally I agree that huge specialized applications can be better optimized if they are local apps.

But something like this is still extremely powerful: https://www.freephototool.com/

CU, Ricsi

... It is better to have a permanent income that to be fascinating.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: A friend is someone who knows me and likes me anyway. (2:310/31)

(I was Borax Man)

To be honest, I'm just annoyed that things got to a state where I struggled with a Pentium-M 1.66 GHz with 1G of ram to view basic webpages. That and I remember having to provide support for web apps which required not just IE, but a specific version of IE, because people in their wisdom thought to use browser and version specific extensions. I simply can't accept a status quo where so much computing power is needed for simple tasks, it's just not justifiable. There MUST be a design error in there somewhere. I get why things are the way they are and the arguments to a degree make sense. But still, what we have now is from people deciding to push technology past its design.

There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but it shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer HyperText. Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer Protocol should have been developed (which could use HTTP as a subset), allowing the functionality available in freephototool, but also allowing HTTP to be implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)

mark lewis wrote to Borax Man <=-

Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
By: Borax Man to mark lewis on Sat May 02 2020 21:44:53

please sign your messages with your real name if your software
cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a
pseudonym.

yeah, most fidonet echos require/desire/request real names...

It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

generally speaking, BBSes have a sysop maintained configuration setting for each message area whether to use the alias or the real name of the poster... this doesn't really work if the user signed up and used just
an alias or used an alias and a "fake name"... it is what it is, in
this day and time, though... easiest to just sign the post with your
real name ;)

Dennis Katsonis

thanks, dennis... it is nice to meet you :)

)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Using MultiMail reader I can change the name, so I have a solution. The BBS I use seems to user the alias/sign in name, instead of the real name.

I'm just used to the Internet, where I try to avoid using my real name for privacy reasons. Although I have nothing to hide, the fact that other organisations can build a profile from seemingly innocent things is worrying. Facebook I found had already built a profile of me and knew who I had contacted, even though I had no account created with them!!

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)

Hello Richard!

** On Sunday 03.05.20 - 08:52, Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man:

I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
On Linux, Windows, whatever.
No need to install anything. GREAT!

[snip]

And simply pointing your browser at a URL to start your videoconference
is a GREAT way, when compared to having to install a dedicated app for something that you might only use occasionally.

It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

" The increasing capability of applications that run in the browser means that web browsers have extensive permissions which are then guarded by the browser, not the operating system. If you have given Safari permission to access the camera in order to use the likes of Skype or Zoom, then it is Safari that controls whether or not a malicious site gets those same permissions. "

" A bit of work with browser history and iFrames, and "we now have a sandboxed iframe with the blob://skype.com href and arbitrary JavaScript content. A simple window.open() popup is the final step to glory," said Pickren - glory being in this case a payout for him, and a reminder to the rest of us that giving the web browser super powers is not without risk. "


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hi Dennisk!

04 May 2020 11:08, from Dennisk -> Richard Menedetter:

To be honest, I'm just annoyed that things got to a state where I struggled with a Pentium-M 1.66 GHz with 1G of ram to view basic
webpages.

I recently bought a Pinebook Pro.
A very low end laptop based on th pine SoC.
(Arm 2 big cores + 4 little cores with 4 GB RAM)

I like it very much, as it has enough horsepower for 99% of the things I do, and it has a really long battery life.
I usually have 2-3 terminal windows open, and 2-3 Firefox Windows.
But one of them contains more than 100 tabs. (I now I am insane)

It performs nicely.

There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but it shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer HyperText.
Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer Protocol should
have been developed (which could use HTTP as a subset), allowing the functionality available in freephototool, but also allowing HTTP to be implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.

I am using Golded ony my worklaptop over shellinabox over a HTTPS connection. Works really nicely, and I can also use it when I am logged into the company VPN.

CU, Ricsi

... Recession: your neighbour looses his job; depression: you do.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: High message: 943432 - Message you last read: 59 (2:310/31)

Hi August!

09 May 2020 23:13, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

Anyhow.
Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide manually over, otherwise you get a black video.
Additionally you have a hardware LED that is lit when the camera is active.

If you want to have a video conference you need to allow video access.
And I do not see the difference weather I allow access to the browser or a specialzed app like teams or zoom.

When I go with the browser to my https secured webpoage with Jitsi that I set up, and it asks me to allow video access, I feel quit safe.

CU, Ricsi

... I'd probably be famous now if I wasn't such a good waitress.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Given enough time, even the unlikely happens. (2:310/31)

I recently bought a Pinebook Pro.
A very low end laptop based on th pine SoC.
(Arm 2 big cores + 4 little cores with 4 GB RAM)

I like it very much, as it has enough horsepower for 99% of the
things I do, and it has a really long battery life.
I usually have 2-3 terminal windows open, and 2-3 Firefox Windows.
But one of them contains more than 100 tabs. (I now I am insane)
It performs nicely.

There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but

it De> shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer
HyperText. De> Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer
Protocol should De> have been developed (which could use HTTP as a
subset), allowing the De> functionality available in freephototool,
but also allowing HTTP to be De> implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.
I am using Golded ony my worklaptop over shellinabox over a HTTPS connection. Works really nicely, and I can also use it when I am
logged into the company VPN.

CU, Ricsi

... Recession: your neighbour looses his job; depression: you do. --- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: High message: 943432 - Message you last read: 59 (2:310/31)

.
Offline editor and emacs for me. As long as I have an option to use a 'lightweight' technology I'm good. It's having no choice but to use
bloated crap that bothers me.

--- PCBoard (R) v15.3/100
* Origin: dangerbaybbs.dyndns.org:1337 (1:153/135)

On 11/05/2020 6:35 a.m., Richard Menedetter : August Abolins wrote:

I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

:)

Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide manually over,
otherwise you get a black video. Additionally you have a hardware LED that is
lit when the camera is active.

A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light yet enable
the camera. Maybe it only pertains to Windows, dunno. But it was grounded on requiring to have allowed a rogue program to get settled on your machine.

If you want to have a video conference you need to allow video access. And I
do not see the difference weather I allow access to the browser or a specialzed app like teams or zoom.

As long as we perceive that the video app is under our control then there's no problem, I guess. ;) But.. when reports surface months/years later that program X had a bug that allowed remote control of the camera then that could be
mildly upsetting.

When I go with the browser to my https secured webpoage with Jitsi that I set
up, and it asks me to allow video access, I feel quit safe.

At least Jitsi is open source.. and anyone can take a look inside to look for clues if anything nefarious is going on.

--- TB(Stealth)/Win7
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Re: Zoom anyone?
By: Richard Menedetter to August Abolins on Mon May 11 2020 12:35 pm

Hi August!

09 May 2020 23:13, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMYPvd86R2I

digital man

Synchronet "Real Fact" #6:
Synchronet version 3 for Linux and FreeBSD development began in 2001.
Norco, CA WX: 68.9°F, 64.0% humidity, 5 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

Hi August!

11 May 2020 18:48, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide
manually over, otherwise you get a black video. Additionally you
have a hardware LED that is lit when the camera is active.

A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light
yet enable the camera.

This depends on how the hardware is realized.
Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical slider)

BTW. it is the same with the microphone, only that you do not even have a LED or slider :)

CU, Ricsi

... Times are so hard in NYC, that the Mafia has even laid off four judges.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Oxymoron: Soviet Union (2:310/31)

Hello Richard!

** On Wednesday 13.05.20 - 16:52, Richard Menedetter wrote to August Abolins:

A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light
yet enable the camera.

This depends on how the hardware is realized.
Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical slider)

Have you seen the documentary of Snowden, "Citizenfour"? (At least I
*think* that's the one) There is a scene where he specifically explains
why the mics and cameras on pcs can't be trusted. This is coming from a
guy who would not purposely allow his computer to get hacked and therefore
is probably safe from hacking. Despite that, he disassembles that
hardware - and only uses external devices when required.

BTW. it is the same with the microphone, only that you do not even have a LED or slider :)

Ah.. YES! The darn microphone.

Reminds me of the debacle of Amazon's Alexa devices going rogue and
recording everything even without the "wake word".

Seems to me that is something Amazon could have purposely left unresolved
for the sake of calling it a field experiment. Then, attempt to fix it
only when someone discovers the problem and reports it.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Dennisk!

** On Monday 04.05.20 - 11:08, Dennisk wrote to Richard Menedetter:

To be honest, I'm just annoyed that things got to a state where I
struggled with a Pentium-M 1.66 GHz with 1G of ram to view basic webpages.
That and I remember having to provide support for web apps which required not just IE, but a specific version of IE, because people in their wisdom thought to use browser and version specific extensions. I simply can't accept a status quo where so much computing power is needed for simple tasks, it's just not justifiable. There MUST be a design error in there somewhere. I get why things are the way they are and the arguments to a degree make sense. But still, what we have now is from people deciding to push technology past its design.

At first, I was proud of myself when I managed to build up my Win ME pc to
a point where I could burn MP3 CDs, configure the pc as a "server"
providing a gateway to the internet (poking holes in the firewall) for a couple of other pcs on my network, tweek the settings to get very close to the 2GB max ram that the pc harware supported, use it to support via
remote control, and a few other things - all the while still only having dialup!

But a new reality gradually creeped in when some websites wouldn't
cooperate with the current browser I was using. And newer versions of browsers simply weren't available for WinME. :(

I managed to overcome that limitation by installing Ubuntu. The pc worked reasonably well for a couple years after that. But the max 2GB ram proved
to be a limitation after a few more Ubuntu updates. And again, the
browser program was the first sign of "not good enough".

There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but it shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer HyperText. Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer Protocol should have been developed (which could use HTTP as a subset), allowing the functionality available in freephototool, but also allowing HTTP to be implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.

I don't know what they're doing on Facebook, but it takes at least 15
seconds to load the main page while it takes another 15 secs for all the tracking shit to settle down before I can succeed to do my first PG DN.
And this is using a modest 3Mbps 4G/3G mobile data service via my cell
phone as a hotspot. Consequently, I rarely bother with FB anymore.





../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.43
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hi August!

13 May 2020 16:19, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

This depends on how the hardware is realized.
Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical
slider)

Have you seen the documentary of Snowden, "Citizenfour"? (At least I *think* that's the one) There is a scene where he specifically
explains why the mics and cameras on pcs can't be trusted. This is
coming from a guy who would not purposely allow his computer to get hacked and therefore is probably safe from hacking. Despite that, he disassembles that hardware - and only uses external devices when required.

That's why there is the mecanical slider there.
You cannot hack that ... ;)

BTW I also have a Pinebook Pro and a Pinephone.
Both have physical switches for the camera and Microphone ;)
BTW2 do not really use the Pinephone, just bought it out of curiosity.
But I use the Pinebook Pro regularly! ;)

CU, Ricsi

... Anger... fear... aggression. The dark side of the Force are they.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Hallucinations? What hallucinations?! (2:310/31)

August Abolins wrote to Dennisk <=-

Hello Dennisk!

** On Monday 04.05.20 - 11:08, Dennisk wrote to Richard Menedetter:

At first, I was proud of myself when I managed to build up my Win ME pc
to a point where I could burn MP3 CDs, configure the pc as a "server" providing a gateway to the internet (poking holes in the firewall) for
a couple of other pcs on my network, tweek the settings to get very
close to the 2GB max ram that the pc harware supported, use it to
support via remote control, and a few other things - all the while
still only having dialup!

Win Me? Oh, I still feel the scars from that OS, and I didn't even use it, just provides a little support for it. I moved to Linux in 2000, gradually.

But a new reality gradually creeped in when some websites wouldn't cooperate with the current browser I was using. And newer versions of browsers simply weren't available for WinME. :(

I managed to overcome that limitation by installing Ubuntu. The pc
worked reasonably well for a couple years after that. But the max 2GB
ram proved to be a limitation after a few more Ubuntu updates. And
again, the browser program was the first sign of "not good enough".

An alternative was simply to never update your OS, which is what I did. It did mean not updating browsers, and software as well, but I was able to use Red Hat Linux 7.3 up until 2009 on a 700MHz machine with 384M RAM. I don't do that now, as its probably not a good practice.

I don't know what they're doing on Facebook, but it takes at least 15 seconds to load the main page while it takes another 15 secs for all
the tracking shit to settle down before I can succeed to do my first PG DN. And this is using a modest 3Mbps 4G/3G mobile data service via my
cell phone as a hotspot. Consequently, I rarely bother with FB
anymore.

I think part of it is that the HTTP protocol wasn't designed to handle small packets of traffic going back and forth. It was designed for occasional requests of documents. People developing more active webpages simply abused the protocol and HTML, and browsers had to bloat to support it. As a result, problems which shouldn't have existed were created, and instead of rethinking the basic technology underneath, people invented new wrong solutions.

FB is horrible design. I joined because someone was too lazy to simply send e-mails. A good example of design is the D Language Forum at forum.dlang.org. It's web based, simple and FAST. But better still, it's actually a front end to an NNTP backend, so you can use a newgroup reader to access it as well. Good use of existing technology to solve a problem. This is the way it should be done.

... Dennis Katsonis
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)

On 14/05/2020 6:27 a.m., Dennisk : August Abolins wrote:

Win Me? Oh, I still feel the scars from that OS, and I didn't
even use it, just provides a little support for it. I moved to
Linux in 2000, gradually.

I was a bit out of the loop when WinME rolled out, so I was unawares of some of the problems people reported about it. But I was in the market for a new 486 pc
to replace an aging 386 and WinME came along with the package from a local shop.

I applied all the tweaks and reg fixes that I eventually learned about. The system was quite smooth-running after that. It was up 24/7 for most of the time
as it was the gateway server to my router/dialup to supply access to the internet from a couple of other computers I used at home.

I managed to overcome that limitation by installing Ubuntu. The
pc worked reasonably well for a couple years after that. But
the max 2GB ram proved to be a limitation after a few more
Ubuntu updates. And again, the browser program was the first
sign of "not good enough".

An alternative was simply to never update your OS, which is what
I did. It did mean not updating browsers, and software as well,
but I was able to use Red Hat Linux 7.3 up until 2009 on a
700MHz machine with 384M RAM. I don't do that now, as its
probably not a good practice.

Actually, the last Ubuntu I had on the ex-WinME machine was "ok". I even thought of rolling back a version. But the task seemed daunting. I don't remember the CPU speed of the pc, but it was just not performing as snappy with the mp3 processing and browsing as I wanted anymore. Keep in mind, I was still on dialup for my internet. So experimenting with other distros was not going to work. I received the original Ubuntu from their free rollout of CDs.

I don't know what they're doing on Facebook, but it takes at
least 15 seconds to load the main page while it takes another
15 secs for all the tracking shit to settle down..

I think part of it is that the HTTP protocol wasn't designed to
handle small packets of traffic going back and forth...

Ah.. yeah. I can't really do anything and get a proper keyboard response until all that activity has stopped.

FB is horrible design. I joined because someone was too lazy to
simply send e-mails.

Same here. Mostly, my cousins. One likes to use PicCollage. I hate that! The combined picture is too small to appreciate the individual pics. It's probably just fine on her 43" screen. :( Some people shouldn't be allowed to use a computer, imho, :/ People using FB have no sense of computer bandwidth and efficiency, not to mention privacy (but that's a whole different story).

A good example of design is the D Language
Forum at forum.dlang.org. It's web based, simple and FAST.

YES, very! It loaded in a snap. Navigation seems instantaneous. Nicely done.

Something like that for echomail on the web (to replace the current offerings) would be very nice.

But
better still, it's actually a front end to an NNTP backend, so
you can use a newgroup reader to access it as well. Good use of
existing technology to solve a problem. This is the way it
should be done.

I like the nntp option too. (See below.) Nicely conceived.

--- TB(Stealth)/Win7
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hello Richard!

** On Thursday 14.05.20 - 08:01, Richard Menedetter wrote to August Abolins:

BTW I also have a Pinebook Pro and a Pinephone.
Both have physical switches for the camera and Microphone ;)
BTW2 do not really use the Pinephone, just bought it out of curiosity.
But I use the Pinebook Pro regularly! ;)

Speaking of lowcost laptops, I discovered this article, and it mentions on
a sidenote that the Pinebook is passivley cooled (ie. no fan)

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/we-bought-walmarts-140-laptop-so- you-wouldnt-have-to/

How long have you had your Pinebook Pro now?

Any shortcomings so far?




../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hi August!

21 Jun 2020 15:51, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

Speaking of lowcost laptops, I discovered this article, and it
mentions on a sidenote that the Pinebook is passivley cooled (ie. no
fan)

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/we-bought-walmarts-140-laptop-
so- you-wouldnt-have-to/

How long have you had your Pinebook Pro now?
Any shortcomings so far?

I have it for maybe half a year.
I like it very much and I use it daily.
With 6 cores (2 big + 4 little) and 4 GB of RAM it is enough for my day to day use. (1 million Firefox tabs and 2-3 terminals with SSH to Linux Servers)

There are many supported OSes.
I use the default Manjaro (??), and it has some issues with the WiFi sometimes it looses connection, and you have to reconnect.

I tried the Chromebook image, and it did not have that issue there, but I did not like that image. (you can boot from SD card to try out new images without flashing the eMMC)

Apart from the WiFi issue I have no issues.
It is no powerhouse with but it is enough for 99% of what I do.
And it is much lighter and the battery life is much longer than my regular laptop.

CU, Ricsi

... In summer its too hot to do the job that it was too cold for in winter.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: Chili Sauce - Ketchup with an attitude. (2:310/31)

August Abolins wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

Hello Richard!

** On Thursday 14.05.20 - 08:01, Richard Menedetter wrote to August Abolins:

BTW I also have a Pinebook Pro and a Pinephone.
Both have physical switches for the camera and Microphone ;)
BTW2 do not really use the Pinephone, just bought it out of curiosity.
But I use the Pinebook Pro regularly! ;)

Speaking of lowcost laptops, I discovered this article, and it mentions
on a sidenote that the Pinebook is passivley cooled (ie. no fan)

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/we-bought-walmarts-140-laptop-so
-
you-wouldnt-have-to/

How long have you had your Pinebook Pro now?

Any shortcomings so far?

I got the first pinebook as an early adopter.

A few weeks into owning my pinebook, I left it on my couch all day and the battery died. Ever since then manage to get it to power up and give me the pine splash screen but it never gets past.

My experience with the pine forum is that they expect anyone on there to be hyper-knowledgeable in the hacker/maker space. I'm not either of those. So, I attempted to troubleshoot as much as possible. Obtaining help from the people there wasn't helpful enough to a point that it led to a resolution. The last solution I got from them was to do a reimage of the OS on the device. Documentation was pretty raw and following their steps as closely as possible never managed to get the device working again. Their IRC didn't lead to any assistance either. I got the message, if you can't handle figuring it out yourself, you don't belong here.

I'm considering pulling the pine board out and slapping a Pi in its place since it's a complete laptop chassis with keybaord, trackpad, display, speakers.

Daniel Traechin

... Visit me at gopher://gcpp.world
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)

On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

Hello!

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

Your asking this question because you using dialup?
--- CNet/5
* Origin: 1:275/201.0 (1:275/201.30)

Hi Phillip!

01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:

On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a
typical connection consume in one minute?

Your asking this question because you using dialup?

I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.


--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)

Hello, August Abolins.
On 11/2/20 6:33 AM you wrote:

Hi Phillip! 01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:

On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a
typical connection consume in one minute?

Your asking this question because you using dialup?

I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.

It's directly tied to the packet sizes if you're strictly speaking of the transfer.

--
Best regards!
Posted using Hotdoged on Android
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Houston, Tx (2:221/6.21)

Hello Charles!

** On Tuesday 03.11.20 - 05:38, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

Hi Phillip! 01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:

On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

Which brings me to the next question. How much data
would a typical connection consume in one minute?

Your asking this question because you using dialup?

I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.

It's directly tied to the packet sizes if you're strictly
speaking of the transfer.

But.. on a typical session for about 30 minutes between two
people, how much data would be consumed? I understand that
the more peopel join the session, the more data download would
be used.


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.46
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)