On (16 Dec 02) Peter Knapper wrote to Frank Vest...

Hello Peter,

I'm going to answer this part since I don't think we are far apart on
the other stuff. Besides... I'm tired of running with it right now.
:-)

As a small diversion here, if you can see a bit into the future, say
when nothing but IP is used for transport within Fidonet, do you think
you can see where things might end up? My own thoughts in this area
are... interesting... to say the least. I am not sure a lot of people
have given it much thought though (some of them might have a heart attack.......;-)).

I always try to look towards the future. I can visualize a day when
the only thing PSTN (note the change from POTS) will be Nodes that run
a BBS only... no mailer on PSTN.

I believe that there is a day coming when Fidonet will be only
available via NNTP or "Web BBS" type systems. The old z:n/n.p
addressing will be gone. We already have NNTP for Fidonet. Of course,
there will still be the need for a "nodelist" of some sort. :)

Of course, this is in the future... how far?... I don't know. Maybe
it's closer than we think.

For now and the not so distant future, we still have PSTN Nodes and
need a way to keep them in the loop.

This thread started over discussion of a new Nodelist format. My
comment was to the effect that the current Nodelist is fine. I've yet
to see anyone prove that there is a problem with the current Nodelist
format... I mean the Nodelist format, not the programs and such that
use it.


Later,

Frank

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/flv
http://biseonline.com/r19

--- PPoint 3.01
* Origin: Holy Cow! I'm A Point!! (1:124/6308.1)

Hi Frank,

I'm going to answer this part since I don't think we are far apart on
the other stuff. Besides... I'm tired of running with it right now.
:-)

Yes, we sure have dragged this beast through a mud-hole or two......;-)

Of course, this is in the future... how far?... I don't know. Maybe
it's closer than we think.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I was actually thinking a bit further ahead than that, and perhaps not in quite so much detail, but its still interesting to see HOW different people end up where they do, with a question like that.........;-)

Cheers...................pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Quoting Frank Vest to Peter Knapper
Subj. linked

Hi ya Frank,

Oh-oh... more rambling thoughts! ;)

As a small diversion here, if you can see a bit into the future, say
when nothing but IP is used for transport within Fidonet, do you think

I always try to look towards the future. I can visualize a day when
the only thing PSTN (note the change from POTS) will be Nodes that run
a BBS only... no mailer on PSTN.

I dunno about this not needing PSTN for transport. Maybe in 100
years.

Yes, we are switching over to more and more inet bbs's and
transport within our network. Hell, I'll be adding a telnet node
soon. But I can't really envision my bbs going inet only within at
least the next 10 years or more, and more then likely, as long as
I have a bbs, it will be dial-up as well. :)

Thing is, I believe we'll keep PSTN transport for quite awhile,
even if only for a backup in the more advanced countries, and it
will surely have a longer lifetime in those countries which don't
advance to domestic inet capabilities as fast as others.

Then there is always the real threat of a massive inet disruption,
so the PSTN transport should always be there as the backup, since
I just can't see us sitting and twiddling our thumbs if we do
experience a major inet problem. You can bet yer bippy, we'll be
scrambling to re-establish PSTN links just to keep the mail
flowing during the black-out. We'll all moan and groan, and curse
the stars above, but we'll keep that mail flowing just the same.
That's just our collective nature. Could you imagine a month or a
couple of weeks with no mail? I think you'll find about 5000
people doing whatever it takes to keep from going into echo
withdrawal shock. :)

Cheers...
Gordon Lewicky (Pdk)

Sysop - Milky Way 1:153/307 NC 153
AdventureNet 33:500/150
email glewicky@telus.net

--- EzyBlueWave/2 V2.00 00F90260
* Origin: Milky Way, Langley, BC [604] 532-4367 (1:153/307)

On (16 Dec 02) Gordon Lewicky wrote to Frank Vest...

Hello Gordon,

Oh-oh... more rambling thoughts! ;)

:-)

I always try to look towards the future. I can visualize a day when
the only thing PSTN (note the change from POTS) will be Nodes that run
a BBS only... no mailer on PSTN.

I dunno about this not needing PSTN for transport. Maybe in 100
years.

Maybe. I can only speak of my limited knowledge of Zone 1. It seems
like, for the most part, the only Fidonet mail that is transferred via
modem (POTS) is within Nets. Even there, that is changing. With the
phone system changing around in my area, many Nodes would probably be
long distance to other Nodes and not able to get Fidonet mail without
the IP transfers.

As a weird example that dates back to my first becoming a Node in
Fidonet's Net124;

McKinney, Texas is about 30 miles from Dallas. Dallas is the "center"
of Net124. When I moved to McKinney, the phone service offered a
"local" number that was good for Mckinney and "surrounding" towns.
Dallas wasn't one of the surrounding towns. In fact, there were only a
handful of the over 100 Nodes in Net124 that I could call locally. I
was fortunate that my Hub had a "metro" number (that cost him extra)
and could reach Dallas without a LD charge. When my Hub left Fidonet,
I took the Hub position and got a "metro" line to be able to do
that... besides, I wanted to be able to have callers from more than
just McKinney. Even with the "metro" line, there are some places in
the Net124 area that I can't reach via POTS without LD charges. Had I
had the IP stuff, I could have used the Internet to do the mail. The
Internet was available, but I didn't have it.

As time moved forward, the phone company has now added more area codes
and stuff to the area. My little town has at least two area codes. I
have no idea anymore of which phone numbers are LD and which are
local. If I had to do all the mail via dial-up, I really don't know
how I would get the translation table right for my mailer. My next
door neighbor could have a different area code than me, but be a local
call. Another person could have the same area code and be LD. :/

Anyway, as we move forward, I see it fast coming that Fidonet mail
will be totally IP transferred. There might be a few PSTN transfers,
but that will be rare and only within Nets or as a "fall back" for
emergency. I have a POTS link with my Hub, but most of the mail goes
IP. I think this is becoming more the norm than the exception.

Yes, we are switching over to more and more inet bbs's and
transport within our network. Hell, I'll be adding a telnet node
soon. But I can't really envision my bbs going inet only within at
least the next 10 years or more, and more then likely, as long as
I have a bbs, it will be dial-up as well. :)

Same here, but a BBS is a little different than Fidonet mail. :-) I
have a long and drawn out vision of BBSs as well... I'll spare you the
stuff for now. :-)

Thing is, I believe we'll keep PSTN transport for quite awhile,
even if only for a backup in the more advanced countries, and it
will surely have a longer lifetime in those countries which don't
advance to domestic inet capabilities as fast as others.

Agreed. Although the other countries are catching up fast. Some might
even be ahead of Z1. ;-)

Then there is always the real threat of a massive inet disruption,
so the PSTN transport should always be there as the backup, since
I just can't see us sitting and twiddling our thumbs if we do

That's just our collective nature. Could you imagine a month or a
couple of weeks with no mail? I think you'll find about 5000
people doing whatever it takes to keep from going into echo
withdrawal shock. :)

<chuckle> "No mail!" "There's been no mail for two days!!" "GOD!"
"PLEASE!!" "I gotta have my mail!!!" <gasp, wheeze> :-)


And you thought you rambled! :)

Regards,

Frank

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/flv
http://biseonline.com/r19

... BBS's are for the best, Inet is for the rest.

--- PPoint 3.01
* Origin: Holy Cow! I'm A Point!! (1:124/6308.1)

Hi Frank.

16-Dec-02 12:50:03, Frank Vest wrote to Peter Knapper

I always try to look towards the future. I can visualize a day
when the only thing PSTN (note the change from POTS)

noted. other than PSTN including ISDN what's the diffreence ?

Do you include 3G mobile phones in "PSTN"

will be Nodes that run a BBS only... no mailer on PSTN.

This thread started over discussion of a new Nodelist format. My
comment was to the effect that the current Nodelist is fine. I've
yet to see anyone prove that there is a problem with the current
Nodelist format... I mean the Nodelist format, not the programs
and such that use it.

the propblem is wither it doesn't support the software or there's software
that doesn't support it.

The same bits that need to be changes also need to stay the same.

two SLF different nodelists might spolve the problem

Bye <=-

---
* Origin: I'm pink, therefore I'm SPAM. (3:640/1042)

Quoting Gordon Lewicky on Mon 16 Dec 2002 23:09 to Frank Vest:

Thing is, I believe we'll keep PSTN transport for quite awhile,
even if only for a backup in the more advanced countries, and it
will surely have a longer lifetime in those countries which don't
advance to domestic inet capabilities as fast as others.

Rural areas come to mind...

-=<[ JV ]>=-


* Origin: The Poor Man's Workstation -- Wormerveer NL (2:280/100)