Hello, All.

I'm trying to figure out how to do something with my dialup node...

I share the dialup node with my voice line (which is also for my business and my home phone). Right now, I've got people that use dialup locked to 60 minutes at a time, to keep the line free. However, between the hours of 10 PM and 6 AM, I don't mind if they stay on longer.

The impetus for this is that I have this one particular dialup caller that calls several times in the AM, waking me and my wife up (the BBS is on distinctive ring and the phone[s] in the house do ring when the BBS is called).
So, instead of having him call me several times in the morning, I'd like to do
this:

I have this line to call Maximus/2 right now:

maxp max -s%1 -b%2 -p%3 -n1 -t60 -e1 -lnode1.log

The -t is for the time length for each call (forced). What I'd like to do is to write a REXX script that would determine if it's between 6 AM and 10 PM, to allow 60 minutes only and if it's between 10 PM and 6 AM, to allow them the full use of their access level's time limit.

Could anyone help me with this? I'm sure it's not too hard, but I'm not quite sure how to go about this. I've got my REXX books at hand and am looking into this already, but I would like some "professional" help. <G>

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Later,
Sean

//sean@outpostbbs.net | http://outpostbbs.net | ICQ: 19965647

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - 423.926.0556 - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hi Sean,

I have this line to call Maximus/2 right now:

maxp max -s%1 -b%2 -p%3 -n1 -t60 -e1 -lnode1.log

The -t is for the time length for each call (forced).
What I'd like to do is to write a REXX script that
would determine if it's between 6 AM and 10 PM, to
allow 60 minutes only and if it's between 10 PM and 6
AM, to allow them the full use of their access level's
time limit.

That should be pretty simple to handle with REXX, the real question is what S/W
currently "invokes" the script that calls Maximus? As long as THAT S/W uses the
native OS/2 Command Shell to handle the script, then you should be fine.

I see 2 main ways to do this -
1. Convert your Shell Script to a full REXX script. This is more work but provids the most efficient result.
2. During the running of your current Shell Script, shell out to a NEW Rexx Script that just runs the part needing REXX. This loads a second Command Interpreter and can add to debugging issues but it should work...

From what you have provided so far, this is a start for option 2 -
1. Change the line that reads -
maxp max -s%1 -b%2 -p%3 -n1 -t60 -e1 -lnode1.log
to -
Call RXMaxp %1 %2 %3
And then create a NEW Script 'RXMaxp.Cmd' - ===========================================================
/* Invoke Maximus with Timestamp variable data. */
Parse Arg Sparm Bparm Pparm
Rtime = 60 /* Default Run Time value. */
If (Time() > '22:00:00') and (Time() < '06:00:00') Then Rtime = 200
cmdline = 'maxp max -s'Sparm '-b'Bparm '-p'Pparm '-n1 -t'Rtime '-e1 - lnode1.log'
cmdline
===========================================================
Line 1 (the /* at the begining is all thats needed) MUST be there to invoke it as a REXX script. Also, watch the line wrap when building CMDLINE. I prefer to build the string of a command as a variable, then just execute the variable. That way I can add debug pieces into the script to see what the line has been built as.

A "better" appproach is to completely replace the original script with one that
does ALL the work, but we would need a lot more info about the rest of the script to get that right.

Cheers............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Hello, Peter.

Replying to a message of Peter Knapper to Sean Dennis:

That should be pretty simple to handle with REXX, the real question is what S/W currently "invokes" the script that calls Maximus? As long
as THAT S/W uses the native OS/2 Command Shell to handle the script,
then you should be fine.

It should since I'm using BinkleyTerm/2. :) Just good ol' SPAWNBBS.CMD. I think that your idea would probably work just fine.

A "better" appproach is to completely replace the original script with
one that does ALL the work, but we would need a lot more info about
the rest of the script to get that right.

I don't see why I couldn't make spawnbbs.cmd into a REXX script or something. :)

Later,
Sean

//sean@outpostbbs.net | http://outpostbbs.net | ICQ: 19965647

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - 423.926.0556 - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hello Sean!

22 Apr 06 18:34, Sean Dennis wrote to All:

maxp max -s%1 -b%2 -p%3 -n1 -t60 -e1 -lnode1.log

The -t is for the time length for each call (forced). What I'd like
to do is to write a REXX script that would determine if it's between 6
AM and 10 PM, to allow 60 minutes only and if it's between 10 PM and 6
AM, to allow them the full use of their access level's time limit.

The idea behind "-t" is for the mailer to communicate to the BBS the time remaining to the next forced event in the mailer's schedule. The BBS then compares how much time there is until the mailer is supposed to do something significant and how much time the caller is allowed by his user profile and allows him to be on for the lesser of the two. If you have a 5PM event, and the caller calls at 4:50, he should get 10 minutes...not an hour (or two), or the 5PM event may not happen. That's why it is normally passed as a parameter (-t%4) rather than a hard-coded value. -t can only shorten a call, so if your users' profiles are currently set to 1hr and Bink says 2 is OK...they still only get 1.

I would suggest using the BBS setup to limit the caller time, rather than messing with the mailer. You could use a commandline search-n-replace to change the cumalative time allowed for whatever your default priv level is (probably "Disgrace") within MAX.CTL, or have two alternate CTLs and XCOPY the appropriate one over the "live" one. It's a one-liner in batch either way and then a re-SILT step to activate the change. Then you can create Bink events that attach those couple of lines to errorlevel exit routines at 6AM and 10PM and solve your "I need to know what time it is" problem without REXX routines.

Of course, you'll want to use that -t%4 in SPAWNBBS to make sure that those events actually happen at the time you want them to. ;)

.\\ike

--- GoldED 2.50+
* Origin: -=( The TechnoDrome )=- Austin,TX 512-327-8598 33.6k (1:382/61)

Hello, Mike.

Replying to a message of Mike Tripp to Sean Dennis:

I would suggest using the BBS setup to limit the caller time, rather
than messing with the mailer. You could use a commandline

Then comes the fun part of setting up two levels for every security level - one
for telnet and one for dialup. Also, I'd really rather not have people calling
me multiple times in the night-at night, I don't mind if they call for two hours since I don't need to use the phone.

Of course, you'll want to use that -t%4 in SPAWNBBS to make sure that those events actually happen at the time you want them to. ;)

The only thing that I have to worry about is ZMH. What I really should do is get a better job so I can afford another phone line, heh.

Later,
Sean

//sean@outpostbbs.net | http://outpostbbs.net | ICQ: 19965647

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - 423.926.0556 - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

In a message dated 04-24-06, Sean Dennis said to Mike Tripp:

Hi Sean,

Then comes the fun part of setting up two levels for every security
level - one for telnet and one for dialup. Also, I'd really rather
not have people calling me multiple times in the night-at night, I
don't mind if they call for two hours since I don't need to use the SD>phone.

I have no knowledge of the BBS software you are using but in my case
(PCBoard) I would take a deep look into SIO's VMODEM (Virtual Modem).

Assigning the vmodem port (serial) to another node if your software
allows another node would simplify the task.

73 de Sam, OH0NC

___
* MR/2 2.30 * Power comes out of the mouth of a gun.


--- PCBoard (R) v15.22 (OS/2) 2
* Origin: Coming to you from the Sunny Aland Islands. (2:20/228)

Hello Sean!

24 Apr 06 23:34, Sean Dennis wrote to Mike Tripp:

Then comes the fun part of setting up two levels for every security
level - one for telnet and one for dialup.

Why? Do you want them to behave differently (and how)?

Maybe what's really in order is some MECCA in the login that does "if night and
baud xxx, then add time"?

.\\ike

--- GoldED 2.50+
* Origin: -=( The TechnoDrome )=- Austin,TX 512-327-8598 33.6k (1:382/61)

Then comes the fun part of setting up two levels for every security
level - one for telnet and one for dialup.

Why? Do you want them to behave differently (and how)?

Maybe what's really in order is some MECCA in the login that does
"if night and baud xxx, then add time"?

i was thinking the same basic thing except that i'd do it in the bat/cmd file that loads the bbs and use that time to next event parameter like you originally thought of...

ie: the following 4DOS code from a live system ;)


:bbscaller
set dd= JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
set dy=%_dow %_day %@substr[%dd%,%@eval[%_month * 3],3] %_year
set speed=%@word[1,%@line[dobbs%task%.bat,0]]
set port=%@word[2,%@line[dobbs%task%.bat,0]]
set t2event=%@word[3,%@line[dobbs%task%.bat,0]]
set event=-T%t2event%
set ecc=%@word[5,%@line[dobbs%task%.bat,0]]
set baud=%speed%%ecc%
set CIDinfo=%@word[6,%@line[dobbs%task%.bat,0]]

if %t2event% GT 5 goto callok

echo.
echo TIME TO NEXT EVENT TOO CLOSE! Notifying caller...
echo.
dtr com%port%: on
echo Sorry! There is a System Event in %t2event% minutes. >> com%port%:
echo You do not have enough time to do anything. >> com%port%:
echo Please try again after the event has passed. >> com%port%:
wait 10
dtr com%port%: off
wait 1
dtr com%port%: on
wait 1
at com%port%: h
wait 1
dtr com%port%: off
wait 1
goto start

:callok
os2title RA Node %task%
%ra%\ra.exe -e10 -%node% -b%baud% -c%port% %event%



)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

Hi Sean!

The only thing that I have to worry about is ZMH. What I really
should do is get a better job so I can afford another phone line,
heh.

I know that technically that is a requirement of FidoNet, but is it really needed anymore? Being that most, if not all, BBS's have internet capabilities that allow for 24/7 mailer access, I wonder if the need for the required bbs shutdown for ZMH is really a neccessity anymore. But, I guess that is a subject
for another echo :)

Kev

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Razor's Domain BBS - bbs.razorsdomain.com (1:397/10)

Hello, Kevin.

Replying to a message of Kevin Nunn to Sean Dennis:

I know that technically that is a requirement of FidoNet, but is it
really needed anymore? Being that most, if not all, BBS's have
internet capabilities that allow for 24/7 mailer access, I wonder if
the need for the required bbs shutdown for ZMH is really a neccessity anymore. But, I guess that is a subject for another echo :)

Not all BBSes do - I still have one board crash me for mail and I do get crash mail. I prefer it (especially if the Internet goes down) still. Much more private than Internet mail tranfers too.

Later,
Sean

//sean@outpostbbs.net | http://outpostbbs.net | ICQ: 19965647

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - 423.926.0556 - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

The only thing that I have to worry about is ZMH. What I really
should do is get a better job so I can afford another phone line,
heh.

I know that technically that is a requirement of FidoNet, but is it
really needed anymore? Being that most, if not all, BBS's have
internet capabilities that allow for 24/7 mailer access, I wonder
if the need for the required bbs shutdown for ZMH is really a
neccessity anymore. But, I guess that is a subject for another echo
:)

all i ever did was to ensure that at least one node of my multinode setup was available during ZMH with no caller access... all other nodes took callers at will...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

mark lewis wrote to Kevin Nunn <=-

all i ever did was to ensure that at least one node of my multinode
setup was available during ZMH with no caller access... all other nodes took callers at will...

My nodelisted number has a mailer on it which observes ZMH. My
Telnet/VModem node currently is running Binkley as well, although I'm
seriously considering removing that when I move the BBS to its new
machine. 99.9% of my mail is moved via BinkD anyway, with a couple of
low traffic links using TransX or Internet Rex. I actually use IRex
here too, just to deliver SMTP mail through my ISP's server. I didn't
feel like trying to decipher IBM's version of SENDMAIL, especially since
my ISP requires authentication to relay mail.

Someday when I have nothing else to do I'll play with IBM's OS/2 version
of SENDMAIL. Of course, right now I'm schedule to be busy until 2 years
after I die. ;-)

Andrew

---
* Origin: Bits & Bytes BBS * V.Everything! * (860) 535-4284 (1:320/119)

all i ever did was to ensure that at least one node of my
multinode setup was available during ZMH with no caller
access... all other nodes took callers at will...

My nodelisted number has a mailer on it which observes ZMH.

same here... my main POTS line is the ZMH one... when i had rollover lines in place, my listed number was the last of the rollovers... that way, all i had to
do was to ensure that that one node/task followed policy and observed ZMH... it
took me a little while to understand that ZMH observance really meant that the line must be available for /incoming/ *netmail* calls only... when i first started in fidonet, i thought ZMH was like a fallback for all fidonet mail connections so i held certain netmail and echomail until then... i don't recall
when the bulb actually lit up but when it did, it made things a bit easier and i actually set up so that i didn't attempt to send any netmail during ZMH until
after half of it had passed... that was i was available to receive all of ZMH unless i was trying to deliver during the last 30 minutes of ZMH and then my system only dialed like once every 5 minutes or some such...

My Telnet/VModem node currently is running Binkley as well,
although I'm seriously considering removing that when I move
the BBS to its new machine. 99.9% of my mail is moved via BinkD
anyway, with a couple of low traffic links using TransX or
Internet Rex. I actually use IRex here too, just to deliver SMTP
mail through my ISP's server. I didn't feel like trying to
decipher IBM's version of SENDMAIL, especially since my ISP
requires authentication to relay mail.

there are other dropin replacements that can easily be used... i believe that WEASEL can authenticate for relays... i use WEASEL with a small script so that programs that use sendmail will work and they don't know any better... the free
version works great and i've a healthy list of "blacklist" systems which helps to prevent the riffraff from getting through or abusing my system... my blacklist covers a huge amount of asian territory O:)

Someday when I have nothing else to do I'll play with IBM's OS/2
version of SENDMAIL. Of course, right now I'm schedule to be busy
until 2 years after I die. ;-)

i know that feeling... i also would no worry about that sendmail stuff... take a look at WEASEL... i'm going to be registering it so that i can more easily handle multiple domain stuff... seems that the author views subdomains and seperate domains :(

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

mark lewis wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

i know that feeling... i also would no worry about that sendmail
stuff... take a look at WEASEL... i'm going to be registering it so
that i can more easily handle multiple domain stuff... seems that the author views subdomains and seperate domains :(

Do you have WEASEL available for download or FREQ? I'd like to take a
look at it. If you get a chance, throw the files on hold for me so that
BinkD can grab it for me.

On another subject, do you have FREQs setup in BinkD? Mine SHOULD be
working; I've got BinkD setup to call ALLFIX to process incoming FREQs.
I haven't gotten a chance to test it yet.

Andrew

---
* Origin: Bits & Bytes BBS * V.Everything! * (860) 535-4284 (1:320/119)

i know that feeling... i also would no worry about that sendmail
stuff... take a look at WEASEL... i'm going to be registering it so
that i can more easily handle multiple domain stuff... seems that the author views subdomains and seperate domains :(

Do you have WEASEL available for download or FREQ? I'd like to
take a look at it. If you get a chance, throw the files on hold
for me so that BinkD can grab it for me.

WEASEL is by the same guy in OZ that wrote FTPSER... i believe i do have the files here somewhere... i'll have to take a look and see... otherwise, i'll post his web site to you...

On another subject, do you have FREQs setup in BinkD? Mine SHOULD
be working; I've got BinkD setup to call ALLFIX to process incoming
FREQs. I haven't gotten a chance to test it yet.

i don't believe i do... i have messed with this area a small bit but only tentatively... i think i have it configured for ALLFIX to handle but do not recall... i know that the methods are a bit different than what i'm used to with FD...

)\/(ark


* Origin: (1:3634/12)

Hi Andrew!

Someday when I have nothing else to do I'll play with IBM's OS/2
version of SENDMAIL. Of course, right now I'm schedule to be busy
until 2 years after I die. ;-)

LOL good luck! I use irex as well, but only for usenet gating and one network that I bring in. Otherwise I am all binkd.

Kev

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Razor's Domain BBS - bbs.razorsdomain.com (1:397/10)

Hi Andrew,

Someday when I have nothing else to do I'll play with IBM's OS/2 version of SENDMAIL. Of course, right now I'm schedule to be busy until 2 years after I die. ;-)

The OS/2 SENDMAIL works pretty much standard, once you know SENDMAIL on one system, its the same on another, as the OS/2 one is a drop in replacement for a
unix SENDMAIL.

The one catch with using your own SMTPD is authentication issues with target sites. At the most basic level, a receiving Mailer will NOT accept your SMTPD traffic unless they can validate you via reverse DNS to confirm you are who you
say you are. This reduces the amount of spamming etc... so its not a bad idea to set up a DNS that will validte your setup if you are really serious about it.

I now route all outbound mail via my ISP's SMTPD and let them handle the authentication issues.......;-)

Cheers..............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

On 4/24/2006 11:34 PM, Sean Dennis wrote to Mike Tripp:

The only thing that I have to worry about is ZMH. What I really should do

is

get a better job so I can afford another phone line, heh.

PLEASE tell me you don't DIAL OUT for your Fido mail! <grins> *waves* Hi Sean! :)
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5a
* Origin: Buffalo Online | Net 261 HQ | Buffalo NY | net261.com (1:261/1)

On 5/9/2006 7:44 PM, Andrew Leary wrote to Mark Lewis:

Do you have WEASEL available for download or FREQ? I'd like to take a
look at it. If you get a chance, throw the files on hold for me so that BinkD can grab it for me.

You should be able to find Weasel on the 'net. I ran Weasel for quite some time along with the FTPd that Peter Moylan wrote. Both are excellent packages. I even ran his mailing list manager for a while in conjunction with Weasel.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5a
* Origin: Buffalo Online | Net 261 HQ | Buffalo NY | net261.com (1:261/1)

Hello, ROBERT.

21 Jul 06 08:24, you wrote to me:

Aren't you a little late on this message? Like three months? :>

PLEASE tell me you don't DIAL OUT for your Fido mail! <grins>

No, actually, I've been using the Internet since 2000 for mail. Since I am going to be a NC soon (Net 133), I'll still be ION, but I would like to put up a dialup node one of these days. My last dialup node was shut down because I switched over to VoIP for my phone service.

Later,
Sean

//sean@outpostbbs.net | http://outpostbbs.net | ICQ: 19965647

--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hi Sean,

My last dialup node was shut
down because I switched over to VoIP for my phone service.

Are you using any OS/2 products for your VoIP environment, and if so what?

Cheers.............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Hello, Peter.

22 Jul 06 12:45, you wrote to me:

Are you using any OS/2 products for your VoIP environment, and if so
what?

I don't use anything for my VoIP, I just pick up my phone and use it. :)

Later,
Sean

// Visit my blog: http://kd5col.blogspot.com

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hi Sean,

Are you using any OS/2 products for your VoIP environment, and if so
what?

I don't use anything for my VoIP, I just pick up my phone and use it. :)

.....;-)

Ok, so what type of VoIP SERVICE (provider???) are you using, what type of Phone is it, and how does it all connect together?

Cheers...............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Sean ..

Hello, Peter.

22 Jul 06 12:45, you wrote to me:

Are you using any OS/2 products for your VoIP environment, and if so
what?

I don't use anything for my VoIP, I just pick up my phone and use it. :)

Later,
Sean

Just thinking out loud here. In contemplation for yet another fallback vector for disaster relief emergency setups using OS/2 and the old BBS system game. Have you ever tried using VOIP and 'standard' modem connections to the FidoNet stuff over VOIP? I don't have VOIP here at the moment. But I'd like to know what the answer to that question might be. Could be an interesting fall-back down a long an lonely road at the other end of 'someplace' where the wolf has alrady eaten both Hansel and Gretal.

I've already got the OS/2 world up and proofed via the Hughes bird. I've just finished getting a standardized way of going into the WiFi world where we can plunk down WIN-XP and OS/2 lan connected boxes via the WiFi game back to the IP
that way. Heck of a lot easier than all this dual boot and shuffle process for
a given OS/2 box against this or that wireless modem in my humble opinion. Gee
.. a Linksys WET-54G is tiny to use to generate the LAN side of the deal. And,
yes, there are security hole possibility issues with the WRT-54GL Linux based Linksys router/wifi boxes. But they are still available and apparently a whole
host of work is being done on customizing them for ham radio higher power and specialized wifi network use. That per last month's QSZT article and digging down through all the URL pig trail that starts with my browser. So I got a pair of these and set things up!

And since the bottom channels of 1 through 6 are actually in the ham radio bands and can be used legally for increased power and gain antenna stuff, for disaster relief planning for a MAN that sure beats the heck out of packet in my
humble opinion. Yes .. encryption questions do still exist for the official ham radio use this way, but as I understand it that is being presented to the FCC in the USA here now by the ARRL.

Plus, as I read this .. ARRL has asked for public empathy purposes that the ham
crew avoid the use of channel 1 and channel 6 in that they are so heavily found
in default use in the part 15 game.

But as a last resort if nothing else game, I wonder if VOIP could be used to take the BBS game (Fido) to a place where curiously, only phone line support existed? And thus pull the cost effectively to zero to create a long term time
connection to someplace that needed it, yet by old phone line slower but effective use?

Thanks!

Sleep well; OS/2's still awake! ;)

Mike @ 1:117/3001

Sleep well; OS/2's still awake! ;)

Mike @ 1:117/3001

--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Ziplog Public Port (1:117/3001)

Hello, Peter.

22 Jul 06 17:54, you wrote to me:

Ok, so what type of VoIP SERVICE (provider???) are you using, what
type of Phone is it, and how does it all connect together?

I go through my cable television provider, Charter Communications. The phone is just a standard, run-of-the-mill phone you can pick up at any store. All of
the phones are plugged into a special telephony modem that is legally registered with our local 911 service. The modem cannot be moved as it is registered to this address (meaning if we decide to move, we tell the landlord to leave it there).

The telephony modem has E911 (enhanced 911) that tells 911 that we're going through a VoIP system and what our true home address is.

Except for the fact that I cannot use an analog modem through the service, I'm quite happy with it. I have free long distance to the entire United States and
Canada, as well as free caller ID, voicemail and call waiting.

My telephone, television (over 200 chanels) and Internet (4MB/256K) is a total of $105 a month (not including taxes!). My wife an I are rather pleased with it.

Later,
Sean

// Visit my blog: http://kd5col.blogspot.com

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hi Mike,

In contemplation for yet another fallback
vector for disaster relief emergency setups using OS/2
and the old BBS system game. Have you ever tried using
VOIP and 'standard' modem connections to the FidoNet
stuff over VOIP?

If you effectively mean a modem connection over VoIP, then forget it, your chances of anything working are near zero. We do Voice PABX Tie lines using VoIP and 30 voice channels will still use up around 700Kb of IP bandwidth (including VoIP management traffic), and no Modems or Faxes work on that.

"Real" Voice (and Fax, modem) calls need bandwidth, in fact a "standard" Telco voice grade "circuit" uses 64Kb digital channels (for most of the globe except USA where many areas still use 56Kb) to pass pure voice circuits. These "channels" use minimal Analog to Digital "conversion" or encoding protocols and
can pass good quality voice, modems, and fax traffic no problem, however to maximise the available bandwidth, Telco's now often use various compression schemes to reduce the needed bandwidth (maximise ROI) and there is no ONE compression scheme that works well for Voice, Modem and Fax. Voice is now regularly compressed to around 8Kb per channel, and fax is similar at around 14Kb (for an effective 9600bps Fax connections), however a modem modulation scheme designed to work at 56Kb has bugger all room left for any compression scheme to be applied.

But I'd like to know what the answer to that question
might be. Could be an interesting fall-back down a
long an lonely road at the other end of 'someplace'
where the wolf has alrady eaten both Hansel and Gretal.

Think about it. In a pure copper line situation, Digital Data from a PC is MODULATED by a modem into Analog signals, which is then DEMODULATED back to Digital again for the receiving PC. The result is something like this -
Digital ==> Modulated to Analog ==> Demodulated to Digital.
Using Voip, you would using be something like this -
Digital ==> Compressed/Encoded to VoIP ==> Expanded/Decoded to Digital ==> Modulated to Analog ==> Demodulated to Digital.
So you are adding extra conversion steps that MUST degrade the quality of the ANALOG component of the service. And the compression possible for a Modem signal is MUCH harder to achieve due to the inherrent bandwidth requirements for an Analog Modem Modulation scheme (such as V.92).

Sort of related to all this, but one of my big gripes abot the descriptions provided for the broadband community is that "broadband" communications ALL use
a PURE DIGITAL transmission format, they have left the dial-up world that uses the ANALOG tansmission formats. That means ADSL, CABLE, in fact ALL modern WAN transmisison formats are PURE DIGITAL in nature, therefore NONE of these device
are MODEMS, they do not MODulate and DEModulate anything. They actually ENCODE and DECODE everything. So what on POTS is known as a MODEM should (technically)
for broadband be known as a CODEC (enCOde, DECcoder). however humans being what
we are dont; like change so the term MODEM has hung around...

One of the BIG issues with Ananlog data such as voice is Latency, humans cannot
stand more than about 200ms of delay in getting voice data from one place to another to be able to hold a "normal" conversation between 2 people. ANY time we convert data between 2 formats we induce a delay, and the largest delay in modern tranmission systems is when MODULATING and DEMODULATING data. The more conversion steps, the worse off you wil be. This is why trying to run voice over Analog modem connections will never achieve the same level of quality of service as over a pure digital path such as broadband. Yes it may work fine for
local calls, but for long distance, well that has many variables that are hard to predict. Also if you use VoIP only to connect to a LOCAL Exchange and your calls go via standard voice methods from there, then you have the best possible
introduction into VoIP.

I've already got the OS/2 world up and proofed via the Hughes bird.

And what may be a "Hughes" bird???

But as a last resort if nothing else game, I wonder if
VOIP could be used to take the BBS game (Fido) to a
place where curiously, only phone line support existed?

Yes, in theory it could, but I predict that you would to be HUGELY disappointed
with the result........;-(

Lastly, remember that an Analog Modulation scheme is 100% Analog signal the ENTIRE time a MODEM call is established (IE while the modem has Carrier present
on the line), REGARDLESS of any digital traffic flowing. With voice traffic, a person does not talk 100% of the time, when there is no voice traffic, there is
minimal (if any) VoIP traffic. Fax manages to work around this because it is 99.9% one way traffic and it uses highly optimised modualation schemes that enable compression to work very well on it. Voice is not quite so... predictable.

And thus pull the cost effectively to zero to create a
long term time connection to someplace that needed it,
yet by old phone line slower but effective use?

Odly enough, the best way t oachieve this is to go 100% digital from machien to
machien communiacitons, the fewer "conversion" steps, the better the quality of
service and Bandwidth utiliisation and therefore a lower operational cost.

As I see it, the answer is to get ALL users onto some sort of "broadband" (in this context meaning a permanent digital transmission path) connection (even 64Kb could work wonders for many people), where digital data is all that has to
flow and this bypasses so many conversion isses.

Ultimately the "problem" in all this is the HUMAN BEING, they need ANALOG signaling, so the optimum configuration is where the ONLY Analog to Digital conversion would be at the Human interface points at each end of a connection.

Either that or someone comes up with a better way to ship analog data round and
forget the conversion points..........;-)

Cheers.........pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Hi Sean,

All of the phones are plugged
into a special telephony modem that is legally
registered with our local 911 service. The modem
cannot be moved as it is registered to this address
(meaning if we decide to move, we tell the landlord to
leave it there).

Ok, so this "box" interfaces between the phones and the VoIP environment. I take it your phones just have a regular PSTN phone number and all your "contacts" are dialed using normal PSTN numbers or are there "special" IP based
numbers that can be dial?

Cheers............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Another Good Point About OS/2 (3:772/1.10)

Hello, Mike.

22 Jul 06 09:13, you wrote to me:

the old BBS system game. Have you ever tried using VOIP and
'standard' modem connections to the FidoNet stuff over VOIP? I don't
have VOIP here at the moment. But I'd like to know what the answer to that question might be. Could be an interesting fall-back down a long
an lonely road at the other end of 'someplace' where the wolf has
alrady eaten both Hansel and Gretal.

Analog modems will not work with my VoIP. Not only did my provider tell me that, I tried it. The modem will not handshake properly.

But as a last resort if nothing else game, I wonder if VOIP could be
used to take the BBS game (Fido) to a place where curiously, only
phone line support existed? And thus pull the cost effectively to

Not unless you use ISDN.

Which is something I may do later to legally run the BBS on its own dedicated bandwidth.

Later,
Sean

// Visit my blog: http://kd5col.blogspot.com

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Hello, Peter.

23 Jul 06 11:33, you wrote to me:

Ok, so this "box" interfaces between the phones and the VoIP
environment. I take it your phones just have a regular PSTN phone
number and all your "contacts" are dialed using normal PSTN numbers or
are there "special" IP based numbers that can be dial?

It's completely transparent on both ends.

...until the power goes out. <G> But there is a backup battery I can buy that will give about three hours' of backup power.

A small tradeoff.

However, if I ever had REAL problems, I simply can use the autopatch that is built into my ham radio club's 2 meter FM repeater. :)

Later,
Sean

// Visit my blog: http://kd5col.blogspot.com

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

*** Quoting Sean Dennis to Peter Knapper dated 07-21-06 ***

Are you using any OS/2 products for your VoIP environment, and if

so

what?

I don't use anything for my VoIP, I just pick up my phone and use it.

Well that takes the fun out of it.

Rich
I-Net turtil@frontiernet.net


... Earthmen fear to bargain honestly.
---
* Origin: Turtil's Pond BBS. Monroe NY 845-783-2106 (1:2624/50)

*** Quoting Sean Dennis to Peter Knapper dated 07-23-06 ***

However, if I ever had REAL problems, I simply can use the autopatch
that is built into my ham radio club's 2 meter FM repeater. :)

Even when the electric goes out?
I'll keep my coper lines.

Rich
I-Net turtil@frontiernet.net


... Darth Vadar sleeps with a Teddywookie.
---
* Origin: Turtil's Pond BBS. Monroe NY 845-783-2106 (1:2624/50)

Hello, Rich.

24 Jul 06 20:17, you wrote to me:

Even when the electric goes out?
I'll keep my coper lines.

Well, the copper lines aren't infalliable either. I've yet to have a problem, to be honest with you.

Later,
Sean

// Visit my blog: http://kd5col.blogspot.com

--- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS - Johnson City, TN - bbs.outpostbbs.net (1:18/200)

Thanks for the training Peter..

If you effectively mean a modem connection over VoIP, then forget it, your chances of anything working are near zero.

Voice is now regularly compressed to around 8Kb per
channel, and fax is similar at around 14Kb (for an
effective 9600bps Fax connections), however a modem
modulation scheme designed to work at 56Kb has bugger
all room left for any compression scheme to be applied.

So said that way I should have realized it before posting, wince.

So you are adding extra conversion steps that MUST
degrade the quality of the ANALOG component of the
service. And the compression possible for a Modem
signal is MUCH harder to achieve due to the inherrent
bandwidth requirements for an Analog Modem Modulation
scheme (such as V.92).

Ah yes, be a contortionist! Wrap your arm totally around your head to modem over your cell phone sir! It won't hurt a bit!

ADSL, CABLE, in fact ALL modern WAN transmisison
formats are PURE DIGITAL in nature, therefore NONE of
these device are MODEMS, they do not MODulate and
DEModulate anything. They actually ENCODE and DECODE
everything. So what on POTS is known as a MODEM should
(technically) for broadband be known as a CODEC
(enCOde, DECcoder). however humans being what we are
dont; like change so the term MODEM has hung around...

Which I also should have thought about before I even posted!

... with Ananlog data such as voice .. Latency, humans
cannot stand more than about 200ms of delay in getting
voice data from one place to another to be able to
hold a "normal" conversation between 2 people. ANY
time we convert data between 2 formats we induce a
delay, and the largest delay in modern tranmission
systems is when MODULATING and DEMODULATING data. The
more conversion steps, the worse off you wil be.

Sure, but again, all I was thinking about was four silly letters 'VOIP' when I posted the question. Which now that you have so beautifully framed you answer I now realize what the real 'issues' are!

This is why trying to run voice over Analog modem
connections will never achieve the same level of
quality of service as over a pure digital path such as
broadband. Yes it may work fine for local calls, but
for long distance, well that has many variables that
are hard to predict. Also if you use VoIP only to
connect to a LOCAL Exchange and your calls go via
standard voice methods from there, then you have the
best possible introduction into VoIP.

Reality time!

I've already got the OS/2 world up and proofed via the Hughes bird.

And what may be a "Hughes" bird???

The Hughes satellite service. Which, incidentally, since they acquired the Direcway operation which was selling and servicing satellite data links to them
with both hand aimed and even mobile in motion auto-aiming systems, so told me has gotten worse in quality. The system uses a 54 inch arc and about a 12 inch
wide sliced section of a dish for the the RF link to and from the bird. In the
hand aimed version you set it up on a surveyor's tripod anywhere in the world you can see the 'bird'. You use an aiming program to find and optimize the dish
angle. You get a decent data path from anywhere in the seeable world for the bird.

With the exception, of course, in line with your teaching above as to timing in
VOIP issues, of the latency for the time it takes to go up and down full circuit between you and the bird and wherever it hooks to back down on earth for your other half of the needed path.

Of interest, my cohort working with this tells me when Hughes recently bought out Direcway, they are cramming more users on each channel than before. Thus performance is getting worse for the users as well as they are going up on the price. For whatever level of service my cohort was paying $70 USD a month, starting next year it will rise to $100 a month. The basic hand aimed equipment was about #1600.

But for motor coach installation, passing under overpasses and so on accounted for, the whole aiming and connection process actually is done automatically! This level of equipment starts out at about $4500. Which there are tons of well-off USA RVer's and oil drilling outfits and so on which apparently are perfectly happy to pay for this stuff. Not me. But the concept is viable for a
rapid response disaster communications system which can be completly ready and up in an hour with big-time data rates should you need it. Take the recent USA
shuttle re-entry disaster out in the farm fields of East Texas for example.

But as a last resort if nothing else game, I wonder if
VOIP could be used to take the BBS game (Fido) to a
place where curiously, only phone line support existed?

Yes, in theory it could, but I predict that you would
to be HUGELY disappointed with the result........;-(

As I now realize.

Lastly, remember an Analog Modulation scheme is 100% Analog
signal the ENTIRE time a MODEM call is established (IE while
the modem has Carrier present on the line), REGARDLESS
of any digital traffic flowing. With voice traffic, a
person does not talk 100% of the time, when there is
no voice traffic, there is minimal (if any) VoIP
traffic. Fax manages to work around this because it is
99.9% one way traffic and it uses highly optimised
modualation schemes that enable compression to work
very well on it. Voice is not quite so... predictable.

Sure.

Odly enough, the best way t oachieve this is to go 100% digital from machien to machien communiacitons, the fewer
"conversion" steps, the better the quality of service
and Bandwidth utiliisation and therefore a lower
operational cost.

Yes, so I'm now focusing upon in my thinking.

As I see it, the answer is to get ALL users onto some
sort of "broadband" (in this context meaning a
permanent digital transmission path) connection (even
64Kb could work wonders for many people), where
digital data is all that has to flow and this bypasses
so many conversion isses.

Either that or someone comes up with a better way to
ship analog data round and forget the conversion
points..........;-)

Fat chance.

Sleep well; OS/2's still awake! ;)

Mike @ 1:117/3001



--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Ziplog Public Port (1:117/3001)

Well, you sure confirmed Peter's answer!

Analog modems will not work with my VoIP. Not only
did my provider tell me that, I tried it. The modem
will not handshake properly.

But as a last resort if nothing else game, I wonder if VOIP could be
used to take the BBS game (Fido) to a place where curiously, only
phone line support existed? And thus pull the cost effectively to

Not unless you use ISDN.

Which is something I may do later to legally run the
BBS on its own dedicated bandwidth.

Well, 'I Still Don't Know', ISDN, grin, isn't available over all that much of the phone grid here even yet. And DSL isn't available in virtually anywhere in
the rural areas around our area yet. And fat chance it will be, so the phoneco
tells me, sigh.

Sleep well; OS/2's still awake! ;)

Mike @ 1:117/3001

--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Ziplog Public Port (1:117/3001)