• PATH kludge on exported echomail

    From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 11:20:21
    Hi DM,

    A discussion in fido was started based on the PATH kludge on one of my echomails.

    My system 3:632/509, exported a message and sent it directly to 1:320/259 - and from there would have been forwarded on to other systems.

    Nope, I'm direct to 320/219.
    P@TH: 320/219 292/854

    A downstream system asked, (their view of the PATH kludge is above) why isnt my node address the first in the PATH statement?

    Should it be?


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  • From Digital Man to deon on Wednesday, February 02, 2022 16:56:08
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 11:20 am

    Hi DM,

    A discussion in fido was started based on the PATH kludge on one of my echomails.

    My system 3:632/509, exported a message and sent it directly to 1:320/259 - and from there would have been forwarded on to other systems.

    Nope, I'm direct to 320/219.
    P@TH: 320/219 292/854

    A downstream system asked, (their view of the PATH kludge is above) why isnt my node address the first in the PATH statement?

    Should it be?

    It depends on what rules you're following. When zones were introduced to FidoNet and for a long time after, the norm was strip PATH and SEEN-BY lines when the message crossed a zone boundry (because there could be ambiguity between 3:632/509 and 2:632/509, since neither the zone information is not included in the addresses on these lines).

    In the more modern "FidoWeb" world, it's customary to keep the addresses in tact, even when crossing zone boundaries (within FidoNet), since the net/node numbers are now assured to be unique even among all zones (e.g. there can be no 2:103/705 since there already is a 1:103/705).

    I suspect that in your example, one of the echomail systems along the path (most likely 1:320/219) stripped the incoming PATH line(s) when the message was re-packed for a foreign zone.
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 12:33:55
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Wed Feb 02 2022 04:56 pm

    Hey DM

    Thanks...

    I suspect that in your example, one of the echomail systems along the path (most likely 1:320/219) stripped the incoming PATH line(s) when the message was re-packed for a foreign zone.

    So to understand if it did do that, can you confirm that you add "my" FTN address to the PATH during sbbsecho export (and thus by definition, it is the only address in the PATH, since I originated the message) ?


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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 12:45:32
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 12:33 pm

    I suspect that in your example, one of the echomail systems along the path (most likely 1:320/219) stripped the incoming PATH line(s) when the message was re-packed for a foreign zone.

    So to understand if it did do that, can you confirm that you add "my" FTN address to the PATH during sbbsecho export (and thus by definition, it is the only address in the PATH, since I originated the message) ?

    So I caught the packet that I export - and indeed I do not have a PATH kludge on the exported mail.

    root@d-11-1:/srv/docker/fidohub# hexdump -C ../sbbs/fido/outbound.001/61fb3275.pkt
    00000000 fd 01 db 00 e6 07 01 00 03 00 0c 00 28 00 05 00 |............(...| 00000010 00 00 02 00 79 02 40 01 ff 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 |....y.@.........| 00000020 00 00 03 00 01 00 79 02 00 01 12 0e 01 00 03 00 |......y.........| 00000030 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 fd 01 db 00 |................| 00000040 79 02 40 01 00 01 00 00 30 33 20 46 65 62 20 32 |y.@.....03 Feb 2| 00000050 32 20 20 31 32 3a 33 39 3a 34 33 00 57 61 72 64 |2 12:39:43.Ward| ...
    000004c0 2e eb ee e5 ef 0d 0a 2d 2d 2d 20 53 42 42 53 65 |.......--- SBBSe| 000004d0 63 68 6f 20 33 2e 31 34 2d 4c 69 6e 75 78 0d 20 |cho 3.14-Linux. | 000004e0 2a 20 4f 72 69 67 69 6e 3a 20 49 27 6d 20 70 6c |* Origin: I'm pl| 000004f0 61 79 69 6e 67 20 77 69 74 68 20 41 4e 53 49 2b |aying with ANSI+| 00000500 76 69 64 65 6f 74 65 78 20 2d 20 77 61 6e 6e 61 |videotex - wanna| 00000510 20 70 6c 61 79 20 74 6f 6f 3f 20 28 33 3a 36 33 | play too? (3:63| 00000520 33 2f 35 30 39 29 0d 53 45 45 4e 2d 42 59 3a 20 |3/509).SEEN-BY: | 00000530 33 32 30 2f 32 31 39 0d 00 00 00 |320/219....|

    Is it a setting I have?


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  • From Digital Man to deon on Wednesday, February 02, 2022 19:15:08
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 12:33 pm

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Wed Feb 02 2022 04:56 pm

    Hey DM

    Thanks...

    I suspect that in your example, one of the echomail systems along the path (most likely 1:320/219) stripped the incoming PATH line(s) when the message was re-packed for a foreign zone.

    So to understand if it did do that, can you confirm that you add "my" FTN address to the PATH during sbbsecho export (and thus by definition, it is the only address in the PATH, since I originated the message) ?

    That's correct. Messages posted on your system and exported by SBBSecho will have *your* FTN address as the only address in the PATH line.
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From Digital Man to deon on Wednesday, February 02, 2022 19:18:32
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 12:45 pm

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 12:33 pm

    I suspect that in your example, one of the echomail systems along the path (most likely 1:320/219) stripped the incoming PATH line(s) when the message was re-packed for a foreign zone.

    So to understand if it did do that, can you confirm that you add "my" FTN address to the PATH during sbbsecho export (and thus by definition, it is the only address in the PATH, since I originated the message) ?

    So I caught the packet that I export - and indeed I do not have a PATH kludge on the exported mail.

    Is it being exported to a foreign zone?

    Is it a setting I have?

    Most likely. Check that ZoneBlind = true in your sbbsecho.ini file if you want your PATH and SEEN-BY lines to retain addresses when crossing zone boundaries.

    You probably also want to set ZoneBlindThreshold = 4 (4 zones in FidoNet).
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Rush quote #50:
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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 16:47:20
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Wed Feb 02 2022 07:18 pm

    Hey DM,

    So I caught the packet that I export - and indeed I do not have a PATH kludge on the exported mail.

    Is it being exported to a foreign zone?

    Is it a setting I have?

    Most likely. Check that ZoneBlind = true in your sbbsecho.ini file if you want your PATH and SEEN-BY lines to retain addresses when crossing zone boundaries.

    You probably also want to set ZoneBlindThreshold = 4 (4 zones in FidoNet).

    Thanks - Indeed, I had ZoneBlind = false, and ZoneBlindThreshold = 65535.

    So this has raised a couple of questions:

    * Does zoneblind=true result in the PATH being scrubbed when a message is being exported to another zone?

    * (I assume the above is yes) - is the SEEN-BY scrubbed as well ? (my address *was* in the SEEN-BY, but I guess that makes sense, so the (foreign zone) system I'm exporting too doesnt send the message back to me?)

    * When you scrub the PATH, do you add any other kludges to show that the scrubbing occured by me? (I've seen others with zonegating software create a GATE kludge that I guess could indicate which system the message was gated through (and thus that system reset the PATH/SEEN-BY kludges).


    ...δεσ∩

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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 16:56:38
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 04:47 pm

    Hey DM,

    * (I assume the above is yes) - is the SEEN-BY scrubbed as well ? (my address *was* in the SEEN-BY, but I guess that makes sense, so the (foreign zone) system I'm exporting too doesnt send the message back to me?)

    Argh, my bad - sorry, my address was *NOT* in the seen-by. I wonder if that result in the system I send it to sending it back to me...



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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Digital Man on Thursday, February 03, 2022 07:02:10

    On 2022 Feb 02 16:56:08, you wrote to deon:

    It depends on what rules you're following. When zones were introduced to FidoNet and for a long time after, the norm was strip PATH and SEEN-BY lines when the message crossed a zone boundry (because there could be ambiguity between 3:632/509 and 2:632/509, since neither the zone information is not included in the addresses on these lines).

    seenbys were stripped... paths were not unless maybe when gated between othernets...

    )\/(ark

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  • From Digital Man to deon on Thursday, February 03, 2022 11:08:52
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 04:47 pm

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Wed Feb 02 2022 07:18 pm

    Hey DM,

    So I caught the packet that I export - and indeed I do not have a PATH kludge on the exported mail.

    Is it being exported to a foreign zone?

    Is it a setting I have?

    Most likely. Check that ZoneBlind = true in your sbbsecho.ini file if you want your PATH and SEEN-BY lines to retain addresses when crossing zone boundaries.

    You probably also want to set ZoneBlindThreshold = 4 (4 zones in FidoNet).

    Thanks - Indeed, I had ZoneBlind = false, and ZoneBlindThreshold = 65535.

    So this has raised a couple of questions:

    * Does zoneblind=true result in the PATH being scrubbed when a message is being exported to another zone?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "scrubbbed" in this context. The PATH lines will be *retained* even when crossing zone boundaries when zoneblind=true and the zones in question are both <= ZoneBlindThreshold
    http://wiki.synchro.net/config:sbbsecho.ini

    * (I assume the above is yes) - is the SEEN-BY scrubbed as well ? (my address *was* in the SEEN-BY, but I guess that makes sense, so the (foreign zone) system I'm exporting too doesnt send the message back to me?)

    When *not* zone-blind, SEEN-BYs and PATH lines are removed from messages crossing zone boundaries.

    * When you scrub the PATH, do you add any other kludges to show that the scrubbing occured by me? (I've seen others with zonegating software create a GATE kludge that I guess could indicate which system the message was gated through (and thus that system reset the PATH/SEEN-BY kludges).

    No. And again, not really sure what you mean by "scrub" here. You mean remove/delete?
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From Digital Man to mark lewis on Thursday, February 03, 2022 11:14:13
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 07:02 am


    On 2022 Feb 02 16:56:08, you wrote to deon:

    It depends on what rules you're following. When zones were introduced to FidoNet and for a long time after, the norm was strip PATH and SEEN-BY lines when the message crossed a zone boundry (because there could be ambiguity between 3:632/509 and 2:632/509, since neither the zone information is not included in the addresses on these lines).

    seenbys were stripped... paths were not unless maybe when gated between othernets...

    SBBSecho stripped the PATHs (and still does) when crossing zone boundaries, except for the ZoneBlind cases.
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Friday, February 04, 2022 09:41:10
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Thu Feb 03 2022 11:08 am

    So this has raised a couple of questions:

    * Does zoneblind=true result in the PATH being scrubbed when a message is being exported to another zone?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "scrubbbed" in this context. The PATH lines will be *retained* even when crossing zone boundaries when zoneblind=true and the zones in question are both <= ZoneBlindThreshold
    http://wiki.synchro.net/config:sbbsecho.ini


    "scrubbed" = delete, ie: remove all existing entries.

    So with zoneblind = false:

    sbbsecho removes all *existing* PATH items and SEEN-BY items and thus the resulting exported message has no "PATH" items, and only has the SEEN-BY of any exported nodes in the target zone. (which by definition doesnt include itself)?

    * When you scrub the PATH, do you add any other kludges to show that the scrubbing occured by me? (I've seen others with zonegating software create a GATE kludge that I guess could indicate which system the message was gated through (and thus that system reset the PATH/SEEN-BY kludges).

    No. And again, not really sure what you mean by "scrub" here. You mean remove/delete?

    How do "downstream" systems know that *my* system is the one that cleared the PATH/SEEN-BY, especially when it's obious the message originated from a different zone (because it has a different zone number in the Origin)?

    Perhaps it would be worthwhile using the GATE kludge (or something else appropraite) to record that, especially if somebody was trying to debug circular paths or duplicate messages?



    ...δεσ∩

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  • From Digital Man to deon on Thursday, February 03, 2022 18:00:22
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Fri Feb 04 2022 09:41 am

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Thu Feb 03 2022 11:08 am

    So this has raised a couple of questions:

    * Does zoneblind=true result in the PATH being scrubbed when a message is being exported to another zone?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "scrubbbed" in this context. The PATH lines will be *retained* even when crossing zone boundaries when zoneblind=true and the zones in question are both <= ZoneBlindThreshold http://wiki.synchro.net/config:sbbsecho.ini


    "scrubbed" = delete, ie: remove all existing entries.

    So with zoneblind = false:

    sbbsecho removes all *existing* PATH items and SEEN-BY items and thus the resulting exported message has no "PATH" items, and only has the SEEN-BY of any exported nodes in the target zone. (which by definition doesnt include itself)?

    No. In ZoneBlind mode, the PATH and SEEN-BY items are retained and amended, as if the message was inter-zonal.

    * When you scrub the PATH, do you add any other kludges to show that the scrubbing occured by me? (I've seen others with zonegating software create a GATE kludge that I guess could indicate which system the message was gated through (and thus that system reset the PATH/SEEN-BY kludges).

    No. And again, not really sure what you mean by "scrub" here. You mean remove/delete?

    How do "downstream" systems know that *my* system is the one that cleared the PATH/SEEN-BY, especially when it's obious the message originated from a different zone (because it has a different zone number in the Origin)?

    <shrugs>

    Perhaps it would be worthwhile using the GATE kludge (or something else appropraite) to record that, especially if somebody was trying to debug circular paths or duplicate messages?

    I'm not familiar with the GATE kludge. Searching through my FidoNet messages bases, I can't find any instances of the GATE kludge.
    --
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  • From Digital Man to deon on Thursday, February 03, 2022 18:30:26
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Thu Feb 03 2022 06:00 pm

    * Does zoneblind=true result in the PATH being scrubbed when a message is being exported to another zone?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "scrubbbed" in this context. The PATH lines will be *retained* even when crossing zone boundaries when zoneblind=true and the zones in question are both <= ZoneBlindThreshold http://wiki.synchro.net/config:sbbsecho.ini


    "scrubbed" = delete, ie: remove all existing entries.

    So with zoneblind = false:

    sbbsecho removes all *existing* PATH items and SEEN-BY items and thus the resulting exported message has no "PATH" items, and only has the SEEN-BY of any exported nodes in the target zone. (which by definition doesnt include itself)?

    No. In ZoneBlind mode, the PATH and SEEN-BY items are retained and amended, as if the message was inter-zonal.

    Let me try to restate that better... with zoneblind = false:

    *if* the message is being exported to a foreign zone (the destination is different than *your* system's zone):
    1. Any existing SEEN-BY lines are deleted and only the destination node address is added to a new SEEN-BY line. Your address is not added (because it's not in the zone of the destination).
    2. Any existing PATH nodes that are not in *your* system's zone are removed from existing PATH lines. If you have an AKA address in the same zone as the destination, that AKA address will be added to the last PATH line.

    This is based on my own analysis of the source code (https://gitlab.synchro.net/main/sbbs/-/blob/master/src/sbbs3/sbbsecho.c) but you can check my understanding if you like (search for "foreign_zone").
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From Digital Man to mark lewis on Thursday, February 03, 2022 18:32:43
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to mark lewis on Thu Feb 03 2022 11:14 am

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Thu Feb 03 2022 07:02 am


    On 2022 Feb 02 16:56:08, you wrote to deon:

    It depends on what rules you're following. When zones were introduced to FidoNet and for a long time after, the norm was strip PATH and SEEN-BY lines when the message crossed a zone boundry (because there could be ambiguity between 3:632/509 and 2:632/509, since neither the zone information is not included in the addresses on these lines).

    seenbys were stripped... paths were not unless maybe when gated between othernets...

    SBBSecho stripped the PATHs (and still does) when crossing zone boundaries, except for the ZoneBlind cases.

    Actually, now that I look look at that code more closely, it's not that the PATH lines are "stripped" but rather "filtered" (points and nodes with foreign zones are removed).
    --
    digital man (rob)

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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Friday, February 04, 2022 14:39:24
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Thu Feb 03 2022 06:30 pm

    Howdy,

    2. Any existing PATH nodes that are not in *your* system's zone are removed from existing PATH lines. If you have an AKA address in the same zone as the destination, that AKA address will be added to the last PATH line.

    This is based on my own analysis of the source code (https://gitlab.synchro.net/main/sbbs/-/blob/master/src/sbbs3/sbbsecho.c) but you can check my understanding if you like (search for "foreign_zone").

    Line 3792: if(foreign_zone(addr.zone, paths.addr[u].zone) || paths.addr[u].point)

    Is sbbsecho allowing for a 3D/4D/5D item in the PATH kludge?

    (I'm wondering how you get a "zone" (or a "point") from the PATH kludge, which I've only ever seen as a 2D address - but then it seems gen_psb() can parse 4D addresses in the PATH?)

    The rest of the code looks like it only ever writes a 2D address.

    Did I understand that right?


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  • From deon@ALTERANT to Digital Man on Friday, February 04, 2022 14:40:52
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to mark lewis on Thu Feb 03 2022 06:32 pm

    Hi,

    Actually, now that I look look at that code more closely, it's not that the PATH lines are "stripped" but rather "filtered" (points and nodes with foreign zones are removed).

    I didnt see this until after I replied.

    Makes sense now... Thanks.


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  • From Digital Man to deon on Thursday, February 03, 2022 20:18:52
    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: deon to Digital Man on Fri Feb 04 2022 02:39 pm

    Re: PATH kludge on exported echomail
    By: Digital Man to deon on Thu Feb 03 2022 06:30 pm

    Howdy,

    2. Any existing PATH nodes that are not in *your* system's zone are removed from existing PATH lines. If you have an AKA address in the same zone as the destination, that AKA address will be added to the last PATH line.

    This is based on my own analysis of the source code (https://gitlab.synchro.net/main/sbbs/-/blob/master/src/sbbs3/sbbsecho.c) but you can check my understanding if you like (search for "foreign_zone").

    Line 3792: if(foreign_zone(addr.zone, paths.addr[u].zone) || paths.addr[u].point)

    Is sbbsecho allowing for a 3D/4D/5D item in the PATH kludge?

    SBBSecho will parse 3/4D addresses in SEEN-BYs and PATH lines, but I don't know of any software that will *generate* them (2D only, as is the standard).

    (I'm wondering how you get a "zone" (or a "point") from the PATH kludge, which I've only ever seen as a 2D address - but then it seems gen_psb() can parse 4D addresses in the PATH?)

    gen_psb() is passed the default (assumed) zone which comes from the "origin zone" from the packet header.

    The rest of the code looks like it only ever writes a 2D address.

    Did I understand that right?

    Yup. Looks like it was originally written that way by King Drafus.
    --
    digital man (rob)

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